Lords Sitting of 31 July 1877

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Committee—Report —Registration of Leases (Scotland) Act (1857) Amendment* (156).
PRIVATE BILLS.
Standing Orders Nos. 115. and 116. considered, and amended, and to be printed as amended: Then it was moved to resolve, That in every Bill by which an existing gas company is authorised to raise additional capital, provision shall be made for the offer of such capital in shares or stock to be paid up within a limited period by public auction or tender at the best price which can be obtained; agrèed to: Ordered that the said Resolution be declared a Standing Order, and that it be entered on the Roll of Standing Orders, and be printed.—[The Chairman of Committees.) (No. 165.)
RUSSIA AND POLAND—PRINCE TCHERKASKOI.—QUESTION.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD KINNAIRDwished to ask Her Majesty's Government, If they can state whether the Prince Tcherkaskoi, who has been appointed Chief Civil Commissioner in Bulgaria, is the same person who was appointed President of the Committee for re-organizing the Kingdom of Poland after the Insurrection of 1863; and if they can lay on the Table of the House any Reports of Her Majesty's Consuls on the social condition of and present state of things in Poland? One of his reasons for asking these Questions was, because he thought that before long the neutral Powers would have to mediate between Russia and Turkey, and he hoped that when that time arrived the course which Russia had hitherto taken when other countries fell under her dominion would be remembered, in order that the people of the Turkish Provinces might be secured against what the Poles had been obliged to endure. He feared that it was too probable that some provinces in the East would become subject to Russia, and it would be well that they should bear in mind what had been the conduct of Russia in "re-organizing" the territories that had fallen under her yoke. He thought the recent appointment of Prince Tcherkaskoi as Chief Civil Commissioner was lamentably significant. Ge-

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  nerally, the best means we had of judging of a man was by his antecedents. Well, Prince Tcherkaskoi had been appointed Chief Commissioner for re-organizing the Polish Provinces; and what had been the results of the re-organization of the Kingdom of Poland by the Commission presided over by Prince Tcherkaskoi? The autonomy granted by Treaties to the Kingdom of Poland had been entirely destroyed. All the central institutions of administrative justice and of public instruction had been suppressed at Warsaw and transferred to St. Petersburg. Under an administrative decree, Russian officials had been empowered to banish Poles to Siberia on mere suspicion and without any trial. Thousands of Poles had been banished in that manner. As all judicial proceedings were carried on in the Russian tongue, an unfortunate Pole had no chance of justice. The Polish language had been, in fact, suppressed, though there were under the Russian rule more than 6,000,000 of people whose native language was Polish. Five-sixths of them, at least, knew no other language. Yet, even in "the Kingdom of Poland" the Polish language had been banished from all official transactions and replaced by the Russian. In all the schools—even the primary schools—instruction was given in the Russian language only. In the ancient Provinces of Poland the Polish language was even more rigorously persecuted. It was forbidden under penalties to have Polish inscriptions over shops, to make out tradesmen's bills in Polish, or to address letters in that language. Even the speaking of Polish was forbidden in all public places, such as cafes, restaurants, hotels, and railway stations. In the Russian schools, the Universities, and scientific schools, only a small number of Polish students in proportion to the total number of students were admitted. The proportion was usually 10 per cent. In the ancient Provinces of Poland—Lithuania, Volhynia, Podalia, &c.—the Polish and Catholic inhabitants were forbidden to acquire property except by direct succession. Their Lordships might have read in the newspapers that no fewer than 50,000 had been converted to the Greek Church. How were conversions to that Church effected in Russia? The Correspondence presented to the House of Commons in March last
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  would tell their Lordships. It appeared from that Correspondence that in the district of Minciewicz the peasants surrounded the church and defied the military to introduce the priest; that the former, with their wives and children, were finally mastered and surrounded, and were given the option of signing a declaration accepting the priest; that on their refusal 50 blows with the nagaska, or Cossack whip, were given to every adult man, 25 to every woman, and 10 to every child, irrespective of age or sex; and that one woman who was more vehement than the rest, received 100. Those were a few of the features of Russian rule. Those were a few of the things which had resulted from the system of administration established in Poland by the Prince who was now to fill the office of Chief Civil Commissioner in Bulgaria—he could bring forward many others. There were people who, looking at Russian atrocities and comparing them with what had been done by the Turks in Bulgaria, were inclined to think—"It is six of one and half-a-dozen of the other." He doubted if it would be possible to exaggerate the cruelty practised by Russia in Poland, and he therefore felt justified in putting his Question.
  LORD HOUGHTONtrusted their Lordships would allow him to say a few words almost of a personal character. In the debate which had taken place in their Lordships' House a few weeks since—on the 15th June—regarding the treatment of the Uniate Christians and others of the Greek Church in Russia, he had asserted that, dreadful as these events were, out of character with our time, carrying us back to the time of the persecution of the Albigenses, to the treatment of the Christians of the Low Countries, to the manner in which the Huguenots were treated in the time of Louis XIV., nevertheless these events in Poland had not struck him with so much surprise as they had others, because for near half a century he had been connected with a Society which enabled him to understand the condition of affairs in Poland. A short time after that debate there appeared in a Russian newspaper what could hardly be considered the mere statement of a private enemy—because the Press in Russia was always submitted to political censorship —stating that one of their Lordships

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  had made public avowal that for a quarter of a century he had been a member of a Polish Revolutionary Committee. The Society of which he was a member was the Literary Society of the Friends of Poland. It was mainly a charitable organization, and quite apart from political agitation. Its office had been mainly to supplement private charity, and to distribute the fund which had been applied by the British Government to Polish refugees. The condition of Poland, though abandoned diplomatically, nevertheless lived in the mind of the British people. During the present Session allusion had been made to the Society in the House of Commons, and the Vote itself was objected to on the ground that it was so very long ago since the insurrection that there could be no longer any person who could participate in the benefit. The number of participants had decreased, no doubt, but some were still in existence. The fund was under the direction of Major Azenleski, holding an office in the War Department of this country, a gentleman of honour and discretion. He (Lord Houghton) had distinctly stated that the Society was not of that revolutionary character which had been attributed to it; and as a proof that his statement was strictly accurate, he might remind them that when the Emperor Nicholas was in England he offered a contribution to the funds of the Society, which he (Lord Houghton) declined. With regard to the Question of the noble Lord, as there seemed a prospect of wealthy and important districts coming under the sway of Russia, he must be allowed to remind their Lordships that the whole population were not of that identic nationality which would under any circumstances enable them to live happily together. In Bulgaria there was a large population of Mussulman proprietors, and a large population of Catholic Christians hostile to the Greek Church; and there was no reason, supposing the Russian rule to be established in these Provinces, why similar measures should not be introduced to what had been introduced in Poland. It was not a question of interference between a Government and its subjects whom it was oppressing. If we had been justified hitherto in interfering as we had done for the benefit of the Christian population, we were justified now in laying
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  down the principles by which we considered how protection was to be secured to them. He thought experience had shown that the Russians were capable of great oppression, and therefore it was advisable that there should be some expression of opinion on it by the Government.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that the Uniate Christians were not the only persons to whom he wished to call the attention of the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby), nor were the Roman Catholic Church and the Polish the only interests who suffered under the all-crushing tyranny of the Russians in Poland. The German language and the Protestant population of Lithuania —the descendants of the Teutonic Knights also suffered from the Russianization of that Province. He would ask the Secretary of State, when laying any Papers on the Table, to include Papers showing the treatment of the Kourlanders and Lithuanians.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: I do not think your Lordships will ask me to go into a discussion of those matters relating to the way in which the internal administration of Poland is conducted. There are two objections to such a course. In the first place, it would not be either customary or suitable to the position which I hold. In the next place, the acts to which the noble Lord (Lord Houghton) referred were committed 14 years ago, and at a time when I was not responsible for the conduct of public affairs; and I am not sufficiently familiar with what passed in Poland at that time to be able to either affirm or dispute the assertions which have been made. With regard to the first Question of the noble Lord, I understand that the Prince Tcherkaskoi, who is now employed in Bulgaria under the Russian Government, is the same person who, in or about the year 1863, held an administrative office in Poland. As for the Papers for which the noble Lord has asked, I must point out that it is only under peculiar and exceptional circumstances that it is a proper course to lay on the Table of your Lordships' House and the other House of Parliament Papers which relate not to international subjects, but purely and entirely to the internal administration of foreign countries. I do not mean to say that there never have

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  been exceptions to that rule; but I think that circumstances must be shown to justify an exception before the ordinary practice ought to be departed from. Now, I do not see that in the present instance it would be desirable to lay on the Table of your Lordships' House the large collection of Papers which might be brought together with the object of showing what was thought of Russian administration in former years. I have not inspected those Papers, and I am not aware whether there are any of recent date which bear on the points raised, and which could be produced without a violation of the rule to which I have referred. But I would just point out that inasmuch as Prince Tcherkaskoi held his office in Poland for three or four years only, and considering the length of time which has elapsed since he retired, it is not likely that Papers bearing on circumtances which occurred at that time would throw much light on the present condition of affairs in Poland.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, Four o'clock.