HL Deb 30 July 1877 vol 236 cc136-60

EARL CADOGAN, in rising to call attention to the Memorandum presented on Tuesday the 24th of July last explanatory of the proposed Warrant for the appointment, promotion, and retirement of officers in the combatant ranks of the Army, said, that on an early day of the Session a Question was addressed to him on the subject of the Report of the Commission on Promotion and Retirement in the Army by a noble and gallant Lord (Viscount Templetown), who expressed a hope that opportunity would be given for discussion, in both Houses of Parliament, of any measures which might be proposed in consequence of that Report. The noble and gallant Lord also assured the House that officers would acquiesce readily in any measures which it might be found necessary to take for the welfare of the Service, provided that a decision upon them had been arrived at only after full and exhaustive discussion in Parliament. The most tangible shape which this question could take, from a legislative point of view, would be that of a discussion on a money grant, which, however, would not occur in their Lordships' House; but the subject was of so much importance, and possessed so much interest for many of their Lordships, that he felt himself bound, and indeed pledged, to initiate a discussion upon the Paper then upon the Table. A great deal had been said, both in Parliament and outside its walls, about the delay which had taken place in maturing the plans of the Government on this question. The authorities of the War Office, who were aware of the enormous inconvenience and even danger of such delay, did indeed regret that this subject should be brought before the House at so late a period of the Session; but he was confident that those who understood this subject best would most fully appreciate the innumerable difficulties which had to be overcome, and would be the first to acknowledge the necessity of extreme care and caution in dealing with the question. Not only would hasty legislation on this subject have been dangerous, it would have been impossible; and he could assure the House that in the War Office, at least, this question had never been shelved for one single day, and that nothing but the most unceasing labour, on the part of those whose duty it had been to grapple with the mass of details and calculations involved in this difficult subject, had enabled the Government to mature their proposals. It was, fortunately, not necessary for him to go at any length over the past history of retirement and promotion in the Army. It would be sufficient to look back to a comparatively recent period, when a change was effected in the circumstances and position of officers in the Army by the abolition of purchase, which gave rise to the present state of things, and which was the chief cause and origin of the necessity for fresh legislation. He was not going to trouble their Lordships with a discussion on the subject of the purchase system. The Government had accepted the decision of the country in favour of the abolition of that system; and they had never, either directly or indirectly, aimed at re-establishing the system of purchase in the Army. He himself was far from wishing to defend it; he believed it was vicious in principle, and certainly was, in practice, open to serious objections and abuses; but he must remark, in connection with the subject now under discussion, that one advantage could be claimed for the purchase system—namely, that it provided a retirement paid for by the officers themselves and not by the country, or, in the words used by the Commissioners in their Report—"By the purchase system promotion among the officers was secured at their own expense." However, in 1871 purchase was abolished, under circumstances which he would not recall, and its abolition was followed, as might have been foreseen, by numerous remonstrances and complaints, the consequence of which was that, on an Address from their Lordships' House, a Royal Commission was issued, in October, 1873, to inquire into the grievances which the officers alleged had been inflicted on them by the abolition of purchase. Before that Commission had reported, the late Government had retired, and Mr. Hardy found, on coming into office, a state of things which he (Earl Cadogan) could only describe to their Lordships by showing very briefly the rate of promotion which obtained under the purchase system, and contrasting it with the state of things which existed on the accession of the present Government to office. On an average, calculated over 30 years previous to 1870, the rank of captain was obtained after serving 9 years, that of major after serving 18 years and 11 months, and that of lieutenant-colonel after serving 23 years and 6 months. On the other hand, the Commissioners found that at the time of their inquiry, the rank of captain was obtained, on an average, after a service of 15 years and 9 months, or 6 years and 9 months later than under the purchase system; the rank of major after 29 years and 3 months, or 10 years and 4 months later; and the rank of lieutenant-colonel after 33 years and 6 months, or 10 years later; and if the present system were to remain in force, it was calculated that the average age of an officer on attaining the rank of captain would be 35; on attaining that of major, 49; and on attaining that of lieutenant-colonel, 53 years and a-half; which ages, the Commissioners justly remark, would be "destructive of the efficiency of the Army." Thus the remark of the Commissioners was justified— That it is hardly necessary to observe that the rate of promotion which obtained under the purchase system has not been sustained in the great body of the Army since the purchase system was abandoned. And here he would draw the attention of their Lordships to a consideration which he thought of the utmost importance—namely, that legislation was not called for merely to obtain a fanciful rate of promotion; but some such arrangement as that under consideration was absolutely necessary in order to secure a reasonable flow of promotion, and thus to ensure that officers should attain the various ranks at a sufficiently early age. Therefore, a measure such as that then before their Lordships, would not only be for the benefit of the officers, but distinctly for the welfare of the State. He had now described the position of matters when the present Government came into office. On the one hand, there was the promise of the noble Lord (Viscount Cardwell) that, notwithstanding the abolition of purchase, a reasonable rapidity of promotion, not differing essentially from that which obtained before such abolition, should be obtained for the future. On the other hand, the only thing done by the noble Lord to secure the fulfilment of that promise, appeared to have been the issue of the Warrant by which it was enacted that lieutenant-colonels and majors should hold their appointments for only 5 years; and the result was a complete absence of retirement, and a consequent deadlock, caused by want of the necessary flow in promotion. Four months after this the grievance Commission reported. The gist of their Report was that the officers had, to some extent, substantiated their case, but that the question of compensation ought not to be separated from that of promotion. On this a fresh Commission was issued, on the 7th of November, 1874, which deliberated under the distinguished presidency of the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Penzance) for nearly two years, and whose Report, dated the 5th of August, 1876, was now before their Lordships. It would be presumptuous on his (Earl Cadogan's) part to express the feelings of appreciation with which all their Lordships, in common with himself, would regard the result of the labours of that Commission in the shape of the Report then on the Table; but he might be permitted to say that that Report contained a masterly exposition of the whole question, which well nigh exhausted the whole subject, and furnished us with a State Paper of the utmost value and importance. Before dealing, however, with the recommendations of the Report and the proposed action upon them, he felt it to be his duty to say a few words on a subject which had been much discussed—namely, "re-organization." It had been—and he believed it still was—the opinion of many that by some re-arrangement of grades of officers—such as that suggested in appendix N of the Report—Lord Cardwell's promise might have been redeemed without recourse to a scheme of retirement and without cost to the country. He might, perhaps, be allowed to read some short extracts from the Report bearing upon this point. The Commissioners said— It is quite possible that if the existing organization of the regimental ranks of the Lane were altered, either by assimilating them to those in the Artillery, or in some other way creating a greater equality in the number of the successive ranks than now exists, as suggested in the Memorandum handed in for our consideration, which is printed in Appendix N, the necessity for any compulsory retirement in the lower ranks might be removed. It appears, from a calculation given in Appendix 0, that some re-arrangement of the kind might render the promotion of an officer on joining the Service more valuable to him and even less costly to the State. There are many officers, as will be seen from the evidence in the Appendix, who think that such an alteration is desirable, but opinion upon this subject is by no means uniform. Now, he need hardly assure their Lordships that so obvious a consideration was not lost sight of by the Secretary of State. He did not, however, refer it to the Commission, because, after mature deliberation, he came to the conclusion that no such, alternative proposal could be entertained, and for reasons which he would endeavour to state in a few words. If their Lordships would refer to Appendix N, page 256, of the Report, they would see a proposal for widening the neck of the bottle by giving the home battalion 4 majors and 4 captains, instead of 1 major and 1 captain; and the linked battalion abroad, 2 lieutenant-colonels, 2 majors, and 4 captains, instead of I lieutenant-colonel, 2 majors, and 8 captains. This, however, was a change involving the establishment of double companies, and affected questions of discipline and military tactics, which he submitted should not enter into the consideration of questions of retirement and promotion. Such re-organization would be entirely a military question, and should be so dealt with. Retirement, on the other hand, must be provided for in order to secure a flow of promotion, whether re-organization were decided upon or not. Such re-organization, he contended, could only be justified either by the necessities of the Service and increased efficiency, or for the sake of economy. Now, as to the necessities of the Service, the Commissioners, although they did. not deal minutely with this question, examined some of the witnesses upon the point, and the result of those inquiries left the matter still very doubtful, and he might add that the highest military authority to whom the Secretary of State could refer—namely, the illustrious Duke on the cross benches—was opposed to any such change. As to the consideration of economy, he submitted that such a change should not be brought about for purely economical reasons; and he therefore thought that the question of reorganization might be passed by, with the remark that the scheme of the Commissioners would not in any way interfere with any future re-organization, should such be thought desirable on military grounds, and the Warrant, therefore, might he adopted without reference, or prejudice to a future change of organization. He now passed on to a very brief explanation of the details in the Memorandum. That Paper which, no doubt, had been perused with attention by all their Lordships, had so thoroughly exhausted and explained the proposals of the Government, that he need not try the patience of the House at any length on questions of detail; but in the few remarks he had to make it might be convenient that he should divide the subject into the two heads of—1, Promotion, and 2, Retirement. The general recommendations of the Commission with regard to promotion, were that the existing practice, which made regimental seniority the basis of general promotion, should be continued; but that in order that it might be possible to bring forward young officers of promise, a certain number of unattached promotions, I to the rank of lieutenant-colonel, 2 to major, and 10 to captain, should be given annually, without regard to seniority, on the understanding that the officer promoted should be brought back to full-pay within a year of his promotion. This had been adopted, and would be embodied in the draft Warrant. They further proposed that, in order that promotion should, as far as possible, proceed on one system throughout the whole Army, the rank of regimental-colonel of Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers should be gradually abolished, and that the rank of colonel should be attained in the Ordnance Corps as in the Line, by brevet only. This had also been carried out. With the above exceptions, and a few minor matters of detail which were set forth in the Memorandum, the system of promotion, up to the rank of colonel, would remain as it now was, subject, of course, to the provision for retirement, which should be noticed later on. The promotion to the rank of general officer, as their Lordships were probably aware, was formerly to an establishment of 275 for Guards and Line, and officers were promoted to it, except in exceptional cases, by seniority, remaining on it until death. In other branches of the Service the same system prevailed; and it should be noticed that this system was intended to provide an honourable retirement, as well as to supply officers to fill commands. The main proposal of the Commissioners, with regard to general officers, was that they should be removed on reaching the age of 70. This had been adopted with two important provisions—first, that colonels were not to be promoted after the age of 55; and, secondly, that the establishment of effective general officers should be cut down to 200. The establishment, therefore, would now be more purely effective than it had hitherto been. And this brought him to the most important changes proposed by the Commission—namely, those relating to retirement. Now, retirement was of two kinds — voluntary and compulsory. Voluntary retirements were obtained, first, by sale of commissions; secondly, by retirement from the regiment on half-pay, after 25 years service without limit; and, thirdly, by retirement from the Service on full-pay; this latter retirement being limited to a sum of money annually voted. Compulsory retirement was applied, under the present system, in the following instances:—First, lieutenant-colonels were to be removed from their regiments on completing five years' service as lieutenant-colonels and placed on half-pay, unless extra regimental employment were found for them; and the same rule was to be applied to majors of Infantry and Cavalry, unless promoted before they completed five years' service as majors. Second, lieutenant-colonels in command of battalions were retired from their commands on full-pay compulsorily on attaining the age of 60, unless their services were specially retained. Now, one word on the subject of Compulsion. The opinions of the Commissioners were to be found stated on this point in their Report, and the Secretary of State had adopted their views. He was most unwilling to apply compulsory retirement to any officers of the Army; but he felt that he could not propose to Parliament a scheme involving an extra vote of money without a certainty that it would effect the object aimed at; and any scheme founded on a purely voluntary system of retirements, would fail to give the necessary guarantee that money voted by Parliament would secure the desired result. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would see that no proposals unsupported by compulsion would have been satisfactory, and that the difficulties of this subject must be met, and the expenditure applied, upon some sound principle permanent in its operation. This, he submitted, could only be found in a voluntary system, backed by compulsion as a last resort. The Commissioners recommended that such a scheme should be devised so as to cause retirements in sufficient numbers in the lower ranks. The scale of voluntary retirements which they recommended was so framed that, compared with the pensions proposed on compulsory removal, every pension granted, and in whatever numbers taken, should be economical to the public. This also had been adopted unaltered, except in one particular. The Commission, following the precedent of the retirements applied successfully to the Artillery in 1871, proposed a sliding scale, beginning at a gratuity of £745 after 8 years' service, and rising, by annual steps, to a gratuity of £2,357 after 19 years' service. The scale substituted in the new Warrant, as would be seen, provided for a gratuity of £1,700 after 15 years' service for a lieutenant, captain, or major, and a gratuity of £2,000 after 18 years' service, without any sliding scale of gratuities in the intermediate years. The Commissioners recommended that all officers below the rank of lieutenant-colonel, on being appointed to the Staff, should be "seconded;" that was to say, removed for the time absolutely from their regiments, and brought back when their Staff appointments expired. This would be carried out in the new Warrant; and he would remark that it would have the effect of a slight measure of re-organization, inasmuch as it would increase the number of officers in the upper ranks. The Commissioners then proceeded to recommend certain regulations for compulsory retirement. They proposed that in the Infantry and Cavalry no officer should, unless under exceptional circumstances, be allowed to remain with his regiment—first, if not promoted from the rank of captain before completing 20 years' service; or, secondly, if not promoted from the rank of major before completing 7 years as major, pro- vided his total service be not less than 27 years; and, thirdly, that the term of service of a lieutenant-colonel of the Line, or regimental-major of Foot Guards, with a regiment, should be limited to 5 years. With one important modification, made with the object of lessening the hardship of the rule for the removal of captains after 20 years' service, these proposals, and the scale of pensions which accompanied them, would be adopted. The modification was that the removal should not be enforced until an officer had served at least 7 years as a captain. A provision would also be added by which service under the age of 20 would not be reckoned towards the periods on the completion of which officers would be removed from their regiments or disqualified for further promotion. In order, too, to soften the possible hardship which the new "20 years' rule" would involve, if at once rigidly applied, it would be for a time relaxed, and the periods of service, on the completion of which officers of the Guards and Line would be removed from their regiments, if not mounted officers or majors, would be, until the 31st December, 1878, 23 years; until the 31st December, 1879, 22 years; and until the 31st December, 1880, 21 years; and only from and after the 1st January, 1881, 20 years—the period proposed for officers of the future Army. It should be noted that as regarded the immediate application of their scheme, the Commissioners divided the officers into two classes; (a), those who in the Guards and Line retained the rank they held when purchase was abolished; and (b), those who might since have entered the Army. The latter class they proposed at once to make liable to the rules for the Army of the future, and to remove them from their regiments on completion of the periods prescribed for their ranks. This recommendation had been adopted in principle, but modified in one or two particulars. With the officers in class A— with those, that was to say, who held commissions which they acquired under the former rules, and in which, therefore, they might, to some extent, fairly claim vested interests—the Commissioners did not consider they could justly deal so freely. They did not, therefore, propose that these officers should be made liable to removal; but, at the same time, it was felt that it would be against the public interest that they should be promoted without regard to age, and the Commissioners accordingly recommended that a captain of the Household Cavalry or Line should be ineligible to the rank of major after completing 25 years' service, and an officer of the Foot Guards be ineligible to succeed to the command of a battalion after completing 30 years' service. Thus the general principles had been accepted; but as in the case of captains made subject to the 20 years' rule, the periods after which these officers were to be ineligible for promotion would also be extended for a time; and Mr. Hardy had so far relaxed the rule laid down by the Commissioners as to allow officers, promoted between 1871 and a month after the date of the new Warrant, the same privileges as regarded retirement as if they still held their former purchase rank. The Commissioners proposed that, with the exception of the removal of captains after 20 years' service, the general rules recommended for the rest of the Army should be applied to the Ordnance Corps, in which the "5 years' rule" had not hitherto been enforced. They believed that with the larger proportion of majors recently granted to this corps, promotion to that rank would be attained at a sufficiently early age without the compulsory removal of captains, which they would gladly have avoided in the other branches of the Service had they thought it possible to do so. At the express request, however, of the responsible representatives of the corps, the Artillery and Engineers had been placed on the same footing in this respect as the rest of the Army. The Secretary of State had also thought it right to continue the pension of £600 a-year to officers after 40 years' service. The officers of the Indian Staff corps were guided by Warrants of their own; therefore, the only point on which they were touched in this scheme was the separation of the lists of general officers for purposes of promotion, although they would be printed in the same list. It would be impossible for him, without abusing the forbearance of the House, to enter into all the complex details and intricate considerations involved in this scheme. Having, he hoped, explained the main principles which had guided the Government in this matter, he preferred to commend this Paper to the careful consideration of the House. Any further explanations which might be required, the Government were not only willing but anxious to give. As to the cost of the scheme, he had no very accurate figures to lay before them; but, generally speaking, he believed he might state that the cost would not exceed, and would probably fall short of, the Estimate of the Commissioners. It was no small matter to propose to Parliament measures involving such enormous changes in one of the most important branches of the Public Service. They could not expect to satisfy everybody, and they were quite prepared to be met with objections from opposite points of view. They had not, however, shrunk from the difficult task of proposing these measures, because they believed them to be necessary for the welfare of the Service and the country; and they were fortified by the knowledge that Parliament had always shown itself ready and willing to entertain any proposals calculated to benefit the Service which he had the honour to represent. He wished to make a special appeal to the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cardwell), who had always shown the utmost generosity towards him in that House. He trusted that the noble Viscount would consider these proposals in the same impartial spirit in which he had treated previous proposals connected with the Army; and that he would recognize in this scheme an honest and conscientious endeavour to carry out his own promises, and to adopt measures which his policy had rendered necessary. It had been stated that officers of the Army were grumblers. In his experience they rarely complained without having justice on their side. In this matter, at all events, they had afforded a signal example of patience, considering the delays which had taken place in the settlement of a question so vitally important to their interests and prospects. He ventured to state that no body of men were more ready loyally to obey the call of their country under whatever circumstances their services might be required. In a purely voluntary service like ours, it was impossible to exaggerate the importance of regulating the promotion of officers, of ensuring their position, and of maintaining in all ranks a feeling of security and contentment. The Government believed that that feeling would be created by the adoption of this scheme, without infringing upon the great principles of efficiency and economy; and he submitted their proposals with confidence to the wisdom of Parliament and the patriotism of the country.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

said, he was sorry that the scheme had not been brought forward at a period of the Session and under circumstances which would have insured for it a fuller discussion than it was likely to receive when their Lordships were within 14 days of the prorogation of Parliament. The proposal of the Government was not a mere temporary expedient for getting rid of some passing difficulty, but was a suggestion which would have the effect of making an enormous and permanent change in a very important branch of Her Majesty's Service—it not only affected the position of every officer in the Service and involved a permanent charge on the finances of the country, but it touched very closely on the very system of our Army organization itself. That some scheme of the kind was necessary no one would venture to deny— he admitted that some steps were necessary in order to introduce that flow of promotion without which its efficiency would be impaired, and there was no desire in any quarter to throw obstacles in the way. He might, however, remind their Lordships that while the Report of the Royal Commission was dated in the month of August, 1876, they were now close on the month of August, 1877; and it did seem a little hard that if Parliament was to be consulted at all about this matter, it should be expected to make up its mind within 12 or 14 days from the close of the Session on a subject which, Her Majesty's Government had as many months to consider. Again, he might remind their Lordships that they had not even the Warrant before them, but only Memoranda partly historical and partly explanatory;—and from this they were required to put together what the Government proposed. It appeared that in order to get over the stagnation now complained of, the proposal of the Government was two-fold—they proposed a system of voluntary retirement and a system of compulsory retirement. As regarded the retirement of General Officers, he was glad the Government had added to the recommendation of the Commission the qualifications which had been explained by his noble Friend— namely, the retirement of Colonels at 55 and the reduction of the total number of General Officers on the establishment. They proposed, in fact, to enlarge the outlet and diminish the body of water. There was a further qualification which no doubt had been considered by Her Majesty's Government, and which he should be rather glad to see adopted. It was that General Officers who for a certain number of years had not been in active employment should be placed on the Retired List. In his evidence before the Commission His Royal Highness the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief said— Those men who have been on half-pay for a lengthened period, however good officers they may be, become so rusty that they are not fit to take up active service again after a very few years. Everything changes so rapidly in the Army now—things change three or four times as rapidly as they used to do—and if a man goes out on half-pay and does not resume active service for three or four years he is entirely out of hand, he has lost all connection with what is going on, and his value as an officer, however efficient he may have been, is lost to the State. That was a suggestion which he hoped Her Majesty's Government might some time or other adopt. The next proposition in the scheme had reference to a much more serious matter—that of compulsory retirement in the lower ranks. There had been much discussion on that point, and it was but reasonable to think that there could be no greater discouragement to a young man thinking of adopting the Army as a profession than to feel that from no fault of his own, in the prime of life, and when he was in full vigour, and when perhaps very bright prospects were opening to him, he might be called on to retire from the Service. He thought the Government would do well to consider before drawing off the scabbard of so tremendous a weapon as compulsory retirement. Then as to voluntary retirement, one objection to it was that it tended to induce officers to leave the Army at a comparatively early age; and the officers must likely to take advantage of it when promotion was not open were those whom it was most desirable to retain in the Army. If they had two officers side by side, one with considerable abilities and a desire to advance rapidly in life, and the other perhaps an excellent soldier but not of any particular ability, they might easily imagine which of them would avail himself of the power of voluntary retirement under the circumstances to which he had just referred. A noble and gallant Lord who had had much experience in the Army and at the Horse Guards, when Sir Richard Airey, gave this opinion on the point— The question of retirement is a very difficult question, because if you make it too good some of the best men, still comparatively young, may take advantage of the retirement to follow other pursuits in the city or the Colonies, and so forth, leaving the drones of the Service in the Army. He might cite other authorities, but he did not wish to trouble their Lordships with too many quotations. Primâ facie there were considerable objections to any systems of compulsory and voluntary retirement which might be proposed. The question was whether those objections were insuperable. If there were no other means of meeting the existing difficulty they must take what was offered and make the best of it. He did not, however, think that there were insuperable difficulties in the way of a satisfactory system of retirement. The conclusions of the Commission appeared to amount to something of this kind—that much of the difficulty arose from the wide disparity between the higher and lower ranks in our Army. Evidence was given to show that "possibly the most economical system for the purposes of promotion and retirement and the most beneficial in a money point of view might be obtained if a different organization was adopted" in our Army, and that "such a change would be desirable in a military point of view." He believed that our organization was peculiar to the English Army. He thought that in all foreign armies the organization was different from ours. And even within our own Army there was an exception to the general rule—in the Artillery, where the senior Captain was an officer of field rank, and in the Cavalry, where the unit was a squadron, which was a larger unit than that of a company. There appeared to be a wide difference of opinion among officers as to our Army organization. Sir Lintorn Simmons, well known as an officer of experience and as Colonel Commandant of the Royal Engineers, stated— I think that the unit that has been adopted in the Artillery, of a major, a captain, and three subalterns to a battery, might with very great advantage, both tactically and economically, be extended to the other branches of the Service—in the Infantry, by making double companies, commanded by a major with a captain and three subalterns under him to every double company, and in the Cavalry by breaking the regiments up into squadrons instead of troops, with a major, a captain, and three subalterns to constitute the squadron officers. Sir Lintorn Simmons concluded by laying before the Commission full details for carrying out his suggestions, and expressed his belief that the Army with that number of officers would be fully as efficiently officered for service, and that the variation of the proportion in the higher ranks would tend to give a much more satisfactory flow of promotion. Similar evidence had been given by Lord Sandhurst, Sir John Adye, and Lord Strathnairn, all of whom had thought the change desirable. It had been said that the question of organization was so important that it ought to be considered by itself; but it seemed to him, on the contrary, that if changes were a means to an end, every alternative course ought to be considered very fully; and, as the hands of the House were not tied, he hoped the subject would be completely discussed.

THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE

My Lords, I approach the question before your Lordships without any bias except this—that I desire to see the Army as contented, as efficient, and as valuable to the country as it has hitherto been. It is only natural that recent changes should excite comment. I shall not for a moment enter into the question of the abolition of Purchase—that is past all consideration now. It has been universally adopted, its principle has been accepted, and there is no desire to see it reestablished. But I cannot disguise from myself the fact that the abolition of Purchase has materially altered the position of officers who entered the Army under that system. That being so, it becomes a matter of the gravest importance to ascertain how the facilities for retirement which existed under the Purchase system are to be continued under the new system so as best to protect the interests of the officers and maintain the efficiency of the Army. In consequence of the change that has taken place, we shall be obliged to substitute State aid for the means formerly provided out of private sources. And here arises the question whether the money to be provided out of the Imperial Exchequer will be sufficient to induce officers to retire as freely as they would have done under the old Purchase system. As far as I can judge, I think the proposal of the Royal Commission is a fair one, and by carrying it out I trust that the flow of promotion will be as satisfactory under the new as it was under the old system. The proposal is a liberal one, and, being so, is necessarily an expensive one. But it is well that it is a liberal one. I think it will be much better to induce men to leave the Army at a certain age than compel them to leave it. My own belief is that such liberality has been shown that officers will be induced to retire without compulsion. Nobody can have a stronger objection to compulsion than I have; but if it be found necessary to employ it in order to keep the Army efficient, then it must be adopted. I hope that the liberality of Parliament will prevent us having recourse to compulsory retirement—but we should not be doing our duty to the country unless we held that power in reserve. With respect to the question of the re-organization of the Army, I think it would be a great mistake to have a number of officers doing lower duty than was connected with their rank. It will not do to lower the status of the field rank. I believe that our system of captains of companies is a good and a sound one. This principle is so far admitted on the Continent that were it not for the expense it would, I believe, be adopted. It does not exist there, but its introduction would correct many defects. Continental systems are very different from our own, for Continental Armies are levied from the community in general, and every trade and profession may be represented; but in England there is a vast difference, for our Army is not composed of all classes of the people, but is a heterogeneous mass of persons who enlist for a livelihood. I hope we shall not run hastily into any new system of re-organization. With regard to the length of time during which this subject has been under consideration, I entertain a very strong opinion that it would be a great detriment to the public service if the scheme were any longer delayed. The question of re-organization might be allowed to stand over, but the subject now under your Lordships' consideration is most pressing. It is true that Her Majesty's Government have had a good many months to consider the scheme; but all persons who are conversant with such matters know that it is necessary to consult various Departments of the State with regard to it. For example, after passing through the ordeal of the War Office, it has to go before the Treasury; where, of course, it is fully sifted and investigated. It has likewise to be submitted to the consideration of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for India, who has to consult his Council, and who would have to give his opinion with that of his Council, on its bearings on Indian finance. Consequently, it was impossible to bring this scheme forward at an earlier period; and although I deeply regret that there is not more time to consider it, yet I feel satisfied that, in the interests not only of the individual officers, but in the interest of the State, and in order to promote the efficiency of the Army, something ought to be settled at once, and that no further postponement ought to occur. I will endeavour to show how the delay in settling this question is acting seriously on the interests of the Service by reading to your Lordships a statement I have brought with me, showing the length of service of officers who are now waiting for promotion. At this moment there is one lieutenant who has been waiting 19 years for his commission as captain; three lieutenants who have served for 18 years, four for 17 years, six for 16 years, 11 for 15 years, 36 for 14 years, 61 for 13 years, 132 for 12 years, and 126 for 11 years. The nominal period for promotion being between 11 and 12 years, it is obvious that these 126 lieutenants will have to wait a longer time if the question of promotion and retirement be not dealt with this year. The interest in the service is damped if an officer has to wait so many years without having a clear view of his future prospects. The hopes of a man who has been waiting 19 years as a lieutenant cannot be very cheerful—an officer, in fact, now-a-days has but a poor prospect—he does not know what may become of him, and the consequence is there is a strong feeling of listlessness among these officers. We have got nothing, at this moment, in lieu of the Purchase system, and therefore no temptation is offered to officers to retire from the Service. Officers see no advantage in retirement, and therefore they wait and hope. Ordinary promotion is practically nil; and the result is that a large number of men are hanging on with the object of seeing what will occur. These men ought to have an opportunity of retiring honourably and creditably, and with some advantage to the Service. Under the circumstances, I trust, if it be possible, there will be no delay in coming to a decision upon this important question. In making the statement I have done I believe I have expressed the sentiments of the large body of the officers of the Army. I do not like the principle of compulsory retirement in itself, but I accept the scheme because it is necessary; and I believe, when it comes into operation, it will be acceptable.

LORD PENZANCE ,

as Chairman of the Royal Commission that had sat to inquire into this subject, said, that the Members of the Commission had been throughout impressed with the importance of making their several recommendations consistent with themselves and with one another; and they felt that the particular hardship complained of was one that should be dealt with by the Executive itself, and not by any rules the Commissioners felt themselves justified in laying down. In the first place, as to the alteration which had been recommended by the Commission with respect to General Officers, the Commissioners felt that to allow a man who had been away for eight or nine years from all regimental duty to be placed on the General Officers' list was an evil, inasmuch as he could not be supposed to be sufficiently conversant with the changes in military formations, in drill and other details which daily experience dictated. The Commission, therefore, desired to reduce that period, and were of opinion that a large number of General Officers at the head of the List should be retired and their places filled up from below, so as to bring the General Officers' establishment nearer to the regimental. He should not, however, have troubled the House with any observations on the present occasion had it not been for what had fallen from the noble Marquess who spoke second in the debate, who seemed to think that some of the proposals made by the Commission were quite unnecessary. The noble Marquess objected to compulsory retirement; and singularly enough he objected to voluntary retirement also. What, then, was to become of promotion? He begged to remind the noble Marquess that the main thing the Commission had to do was to provide a flow of promotion. There had been a flow of promotion under the Purchase system, but they had to devise a flow of promotion without Purchase. For their guidance, they consulted statistics for the 10 years before the abolition of Purchase; and they found that, within that period, the number of Officers sold out in the rank of lieutenant colonel was 49 only; in the rank of major, 137; of captain, 1,051; and lieutenant colonels and ensigns, 1,600. These figures showed conclusively this fact — that under Purchase the flow of promotion was in the main created by retirements in the lower ranks. It had been the object of the Commission to procure a similar flow of promotion without Purchase, and they might be excused for thinking that the surest and best mode of doing so was to endeavour to procure similar retirements in the junior ranks by similar inducements. This was the justification for the pensions on voluntary retirement, which they induced the State to offer. He very much regretted that the Government had altered this portion of the scheme. Instead of allowing officers to retire when convenient to themselves—at any time after 8 years' service—with proportionate pensions as the Commissioners had recommended, the Government had fixed upon two periods only, between 8 and 20 years' service, at which a pension would be allowed on retirement. This change, he very much feared, would go far to upset the well-founded expectations which the Commissioners entertained—that no compulsory retirement would practically be required; and this would be a great evil. Great objection had been taken, in and out of the House, on the score of compulsory retirement. The remarks made by the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge) were entirely in the direction of the feelings and opinions of the Commissioners— from the first to the last they considered that compulsory retirement was not, in itself, desirable, but then they came to the conclusion, that it might be a necessity, and it devolved upon those who were opposed to it to show what could be done if voluntary retirements failed to give the requisite promotion without compulsory retirement. The Commission had done all they could in the direction of voluntary retirement; and unless the alteration which the Government had made in their scheme should prevent it, he believed that compulsion would never he required. The noble Marquess, in the remarks which he had made with respect to exchanges, seemed to have forgotten that in all cases of exchange there must be two parties to the bargain, the rich officer who paid, as well as the poor officer who received. As to the system of re-organization on which the noble Marquess spoke, the question was purely a military one, and its importance should not be diminished by considerations of mere economy. They had never been able to get at anything like a calculation showing that the promotion asked for could be got by any Army re-organization. He hoped that no suggestion that it could be done would for one moment weigh on their Lordships' minds. The officers of the Army had borne with great patience this trying state of things.

VISCOUNT CARDWELL

said, he would not willingly say anything which should have a tendency to create delay in the settlement of this important and difficult question. The Commission over which his noble and learned Friend (Lord Penzance) had so ably presided, consisted of three eminently judicial persons—his noble and learned Friend himself, Sir William James, and his right hon. Friend Mr. Ward Hunt, of whose death they had that day heard with painful surprise, and with most sincere regret. The Commission were deeply indebted to the diligence and practical ability which the lamented Gentleman brought to the work. Indeed, three more judicial persons could not have been appointed to the duty; and he would, therefore, say nothing that should have the result of throwing obstacles in the way of a settlement— on the contrary, his desire was to promote to the utmost of his power every measure designed for the improvement and advantage of the Army. He fully appreciated the desire that the matter should, if possible, be settled in the present Session of Parliament; but their Lordships must remember that it was not upon them, but rather upon the other House, that the settlement chiefly depended. What Her Majesty's Government had to do was to satisfy the House of Commons that proper principles had been adopted, and if they were successful in that endeavour, he had not the slightest doubt that that House would vote the money. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Penzance) seemed to think the noble Marquess had made an attack upon the Report of the Royal Commission. That he did not understand to be the case. The noble Marquess had objected to compulsory retirement, particularly in the lower ranks. The same objection had been expressed by the Royal Commission and by the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge), and perhaps it might be assumed for the moment that all their Lordships were of the same opinion. That being the case, the noble Marquess said they had got in the Report of the Commissioners a plan which they certainly did not discourage— on the contrary, so far as a colourless Report could be taken as encouraging, they seemed to encourage it, and if that plan had been adopted, the necessity of resorting to compulsion—at least, in the case of the younger officers —might, it would seem, have been avoided. After stating great objections to compulsory retirement, they said— It is quite possible that if the existing organization of the regimental ranks of the Line were altered, either by assimilating them to those in the Artillery or in some other way creating a greater equality in the numbers of the successive ranks than now exists—as suggested in a memorandum handed in for our consideration, which is printed in Appendix N— the necessity for any compulsory retirement in the lower ranks might be removed. And it appears from a calculation given in Appendix O that some re-arrangement of the kind might render the prospects of an officer on joining the Service more valuable to him and even less costly to the State. There are many officers, as will be seen from the evidence in the Appendix, who think that such an alteration is desirable; but opinion on this subject is by no means uniform. We have not entered upon this question, as we conceive it not to be within our province to deal with it; the question referred to us being how to create the necessary promotion under the existing organization. Short of dealing positively with the subject, the language of the Report could hardly have been more favourable. What he understood his noble Friend to say was that he wished this question had been gone into. Appendix N, referred to in that extract, said— The principle of reducing the number of companies in the battalion, at the same time that their strength is increased, has been adopted by all foreign armies, and its introduction into our Service for tactical reasons has been for some time advocated by a large number of experienced officers in our Army. He hoped he would not be considered obstructive when he ventured to join in saying that it would have been well to have that plan carefully examined by a high military authority and brought to a settlement. He did not for a moment believe that the opinion indicated was a universal opinion in the British Army. They had just heard that the highest authority, in the Army—the illustrious Duke—was entirely opposed to it. He happened to know, also, that the opinion of the illustrious Duke was shared by many younger men who desired to promote in every way the efficiency of the Army, and were not disposed to object to proposals merely because they were novel. But such a divergence of opinion was no reason why the Royal Commission should have shrunk from the careful examination of the question. On the contrary, it was the strongest reason why they should have thoroughly exhausted it. The re-organization of the Army for tactical reasons was the natural foundation of any pecuniary arrangement as to promotion and retirement, and he could not help thinking that it would have been more satisfactory had that larger question been settled first. His noble Friend who opened the discussion (Earl Cadogan) spoke of retirement as having become stagnant in consequence of the abolition of Purchase. Now, personally, he had never doubted that when the stimulus due to the sale of commissions should cease, a new necessity would arise for some new measures to expedite promotion; but stagnation was certainly not created by the first operation of the change, for in August, 1874, the Royal Commissioners thus reported— Up to the present time, so far as we have been able to ascertain, the rate of promotion has been well sustained since the Act, and we venture to hope that the recommendations we have made, if carried into effect, will continue to maintain it. And it was perfectly natural that matters should have been in that state, because officers, instead of making arrangements through their agents, had only to go to the Purchase Commissioners and ask for their money. In conclusion, he could only say that having himself given a promise, on behalf of the late Government, that promotion should continue substantially the same as before the change, he was the last man to oppose any well-considered and reasonable scheme of the Government to make that promise effectual. He recognized the exertions which the Government had made to bring the question to maturity, and, for his own part, he cordially desired the contentment of the Army and the liberal remuneration of its officers.

THE EARL OF POWIS

said, they lived in a commercial age and in a commercial country, and he did not see that there was much in the Warrant that would satisfy the Army. For instance, he doubted whether officers would be willing to withdraw after 14 years' service without compensation. It seemed to him that a hard-and-fast line drawn at 15 years' service would create great discontent, especially in cases where officers who before completing that period of service were compelled to resign through ill-health, and. that if service in the ranks were only allowed to count as half-time it would place officers who had risen from the ranks at a serious disadvantage. They were a class to whom promotion should be made a real advantage; they were not persons of private means, and in questions of retirement age must be considered as much as actual service.

THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORD

said, he willingly endorsed all that had been said by the illustrious Duke on the absolute necessity there was, in the interest of poor officers of the Army, that the question should be at once settled, and not be put off for another year. They were in a state of the greatest anxiety as to their future prospects. They had so far waited with exemplary patience for the decision of this question—there had not been a word of complaint from the officers, which was the best proof of the discipline of the Army— and he trusted their hopes would now be met by this long and painful suspense being brought to an end. He trusted also that the prophecies of the noble Viscount (Viscount Cardwell) would be fulfilled, that the scheme would not cost so much as was anticipated. If it did, it should be remembered that the abolition of Purchase had emanated from the noble Viscount's side of the House.

EARL FORTESCUE

I had hoped, from the Notice given by the noble Earl (Earl Cadogan), and the title of the Memorandum presented by him, that either in his admirable speech, or in that Memorandum, I should have found something relating to the appointment of officers to commissions. For the Warrant of 1871 needs correction, quite as much about the appointment as about the promotion and retirement of combatant officers; dealing, as it does, with the raw material out of which the officers are made. On the abolition of Purchase it was decided that commissions in the Army should be gained by competitive examinations. I do not at all object to the principle. By all means let each commission be given to the best competitor. But I object to the way in which the principle is acted upon. I object that the present competitive examination tests only the book learning, that is, the intelligence, or rather especially the memory, of the candidates. When the young candidate's competent health and eyesight have been certified after a medical examination, which does not at all test his strength or activity, not one mark can he gain in the competitive examination for Cavalry or Infantry, the non-scientific branches of the Army, by excellence in riding or any other martial or athletic exercise, though, curiously enough, this is not the case in the Engineers and Artillery, the two scientific branches. We all remember how the youthful heir of an illustrious though unfortunate Sovereign, who, whatever his faults, was the best foreign Ally England ever had, gained a distinguished place in the Woolwich examinations for commissions, to which his getting the highest marks for riding contributed. It will avail a young candidate for a Cavalry or Infantry commission nothing that he has the eye of an hawk and the fleetness of a deer, that he can climb like a goat, or leap like a roebuck, or swim like an otter, or ride like a centaur, if, being equal in other marks, he is beaten by two marks in, say, Chaucer, by a candidate who has barely got his medical certificate, rather but not very short-sighted, rather but not very short-winded, and decidedly inactive, for activity is not tested by the doctor who passes him. And yet which would be the most likely to serve the Queen efficiently—the young man taken, or the young man rejected in such a case? That noble veteran, Sir John Burgoyne, himself not only a man of science but of much literary culture, in the last conversation I ever had with him, strongly deprecated too much weight being given to book learning in candidates for commissions. He attached great importance himself to the hardihood and adventurous spirit which is apt to show itself in a love of field sports and athletic exercises. A friend of mine, who long commanded with acknowledged ability a Cavalry regiment, quite an enthusiast for competitive examinations for commissions, told me that he thought marks for strength, agility, and skill in athletic and martial exercises, ought to count for at least a third, if not for half, the total in these examinations. I earnestly hope the Government will, during the Recess, consider the question; and, for the sake of obtaining the best and most efficient officers, allow excellence in martial and athletic exercises to have its due weight in competitive examination for commissions in the non-scientific as well as the scientific branches of the British Army.

LORD STEATHNAIRN

concurred in the remarks of the noble Earl who had just spoken as to the importance of the possession of physical qualifications by candidates for commissions. He approved the Memorandum.

House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.