Lords Sitting of 12 February 1877

ROLL OF THE LORDS.
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had prepared and laid it on the Table: The same was ordered to be printed. (No. 3.)
TURKEY—MISSION OF ROYAL ENGINEER OFFICERS.—QUESTION.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF ST. ALBANSasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it was correctly stated in the newspapers that Officers of the Royal Engineers were sent out to Constantinople last autumn; in what capacity they surveyed the defences there; and in what light their mission was represented to the Turkish Government? His attention had been directed to statements which had appeared in the newspapers to the effect that Engineer Officers had been sent out to Constantinople and were now engaged in surveying the defences in and around that city. Should the noble Earl the Under Secretary for War be able to deny these statements he should not regret having trespassed on their Lordships' indulgence. Should, however, he admit that, at a critical time of the war between Turkey and Servia, officers of the Royal Engineers were sent out to advise on the defence of Constantinople, he thought Parliament had a right to ask from Her Majesty's Government an explanation of so unusual a course. He trusted his noble Friend would tell them under what understanding facilities had been obtained from the Turkish authorities for those officers to perform their duties. He wanted to know how it was that, while British diplomacy was telling the Porte "You have nothing to expect from us," British officers were considering how the capital of Turkey could be preserved from a possible calamity—that while the Government and the Press of this country were impressing on the Turkish Government the necessity of concession and the hopelessness of resistance our scientific officers were said to have reported that the line of the Balkan was unforceable and Constantinople invulnerable by land. True,
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  it was not a great military demonstration; but he believed the presence of those three or four English officers had influenced the Council and public opinion of Stamboul more than the thousands of Russians massed on the frontier. Could the Porte seriously believe that a Government which sent those officers meant to do nothing? Was it surprising that the action of the War Office had more weight with them than the words of the Ambassador? If Her Majesty's Government were at the time prepared to have gone to war for Turkey, every one must admit that they were wise to be prepared and in the course they took. But if their policy at that time was the same as that stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer now, he asked, What was the use of seeking for this information? These English officers were there under false pretences. He asked his noble Friend this Question from no unpatriotic motive, and should feel glad if his asking it enabled the noble Earl to give a satisfactory explanation of an announcement which at the time created apprehension at home and irritation abroad. He believed Colonel Bent, Royal Engineers, and two Engineers were sent on a like mission just before the Crimean War, and this made the proceeding respecting which he now sought information of still greater importance than it would otherwise have been.
  EARL CADOGAN: My Lords, officers have from time to time been employed by the War Office in various parts of the East to obtain intelligence that was thought necessary for the service of Her Majesty's Government. It is obviously impossible for me to enter in this House upon the details of the information which they may from time to time have acquired. I can, however, assure the noble Duke that these officers have been employed exclusively in the service and for the objects of Her Majesty's Government, and that their services would never have been placed at the disposal of any foreign Government whatsoever; nor has any expectation ever been held out that their services would be so placed. With regard to the last part of the Question of the noble Duke, I have to say that no instructions were given to Her Majesty's Ambassador to make any representations to the Turkish Government on the subject.

METROPOLIS—HYDE PARK CORNER.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL FORTESCUEasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether they are prepared to take early steps, by opening a new communication between Piccadilly and Grosvenor Place, to divert the traffic coming from the north and east into Belgravia, which has during certain hours of the day during several seasons caused such a highly inconvenient block of vehicles at Hyde Park Corner; and whether, to afford some slight relief meanwhile, they will cause the roadway at Hyde Park Corner to be widened forthwith seven or eight feet by throwing the footpath there further back and carrying it through the two little gardens to the north of each side of the Arch at the top of Constitution Hill? The noble Earl said that the crush to which his Question referred had been long increasing year after year. It had been for the last two years such as would be discreditable to any civilized metropolis, and in his opinion was all the more discreditable to London because this was the richest capital in the world. Year after year there had been various projects for the relief of the block; but as yet nothing had been done. In these matters we moved very slowly. In 1845 he was a Member of a Committee of the House of Commons on Metropolitan Communications which took evidence, and carefully considered the various recommendations embodied in its Report, and among others one which he had the honour of making to it—namely, that of the opening of Hamilton Place, which was carried into effect just a quarter of a century afterwards. The relief afforded by this was very great; but since it was adopted the wealth of London and the number of conveyances having to pass by Hyde Park Corner had enormously increased, and every year the block caused by the traffic there was becoming greater and greater. Even the slight measure which he now suggested, though totally inadequate to the requirements of the case, would give appreciable relief by affording width for one additional line of carriages; and it had the advantage, that there would be no difficulty and little expense in adopting it.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, the subject which the noble Earl has brought before us is one which
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  interests everybody. I assure him that it has not been neglected by Her Majesty's Government; but he who is so well acquainted with the subject will readily understand that there are great difficulties connected with it. Several plans have been under the consideration of the Board of Works, and one of them has been favourably considered; but the difficulties which have to be encountered successfully before that plan can be carried into effect are considerable, and I am sorry to say that not the least considerable would arise from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the plan would be expensive, though I believe it would be effective and satisfactory. I hope the noble Earl will be satisfied with the answer I give him as to the first part of his Question—that the subject is engaging the sedulous attention of the First Commissioner of Works. With respect to the second part of the Question—whether the Government will adopt the suggestion of the noble Earl—the answer that I have to make is that the scheme has been considered by the Board of Works. According to the report made to me, in their opinion the remedial effect would be infinitesimally small, while the expense would not be trifling. Moreover, we must recollect that it is an expense that would be entirely thrown away, and would therefore be a useless addition to the expenditure that must be encountered in the carrying out of an effective plan.
  THE EARL OF POWISsaid, he believed a great improvement might be made at a moderate cost, and one which would give a substantial relief at Hyde Park Corner, by very nearly following the lines of the plan exhibited last year. The proposal of last year for constructing a subway failed, because it unduly raised the level of the roadway where it ran under Constitution Hill, and the reason for desiring a bridge of the height which would do that was to enable carriages, waggons, &c., to pass under. His suggestion was that a gravel slope might be made from the end of Hamilton Place to the Green Park, passing by a subway under Constitution Hill. He would make the subway so that it would only raise the road on Constitution Hill imperceptibly—a foot at most. This would give sufficient headway to persons riding on

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  horseback, broughams, cabs, and ordinary carriages. He believed that taking away this light traffic and a large quantity of the foot traffic as well would be a very sensible relief to the road opposite St. George's Hospital. It was obvious that all traffic going from Victoria Station to the north-western district and Paddington would pass along this suggested route; and he believed the subway might be made at a moderate cost.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALEsaid, he had himself submitted a plan to the Board of Works some time ago, and he supposed that plan still remained there. The suggestion which he had made was, that the Wellington Arch should be left for the Queen as an entrance to her private gardens, and that with it a small portion of the upper corner of the Park should be added to them. That there should be a road from Hamilton Place to Halkin Street, over which the Queen's private road should pass on a bridge on the level of the roadway at the Arch. The soil from the cutting would supply the necessary embankment which, being within the garden, might be planted with shrubs and trees, and would not be unsightly. Another road to be carried from Hamilton Place to Constitution Hill, to be used by carriages like other roads in St. James's Park, affording a direct communication from Piccadilly to Parliament and Lower Westminster without entering Grosvenor Place. He believed that this plan would afford greater public accommodation than any other hitherto proposed.
  LORD DUNSANYsaid, that the heavy traffic in the neighbourhood of Hyde Park was greatly on the increase, and it would be well to consider whether a subway might not be made from Grosvenor Place to some distance the other side of Hyde Park. It would be impossible to make a subway of similar length in any other part of the metropolis for so moderate a sum, because there would be no purchase of property until the subway was carried to the lower end of Grosvenor Place.
  EARL FORTESCUEprotested against the notion that what he had suggested need cost more than very little. The same pavement, railings, and lamp-posts would be available for use again after widening the roadway. But, from what he had heard of the unreasonable expen-
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  siveness of much of the work done by the Board of Works, he thought it very likely they would contrive to make even this very costly.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.