Lords Sitting of 9 August 1877

MINUTES
— SELECT COMMITTEE — Third Report—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod [No. 191].
PUBLIC BILLS — First Reading — Fraudulent Debtors (192); Fisheries (Dynamite) (193).
Second Reading—County Officers and Courts (Ireland) * (177); Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) * (180); Police (Expenses) Act Continuance* (167); Colonial Stock* (189).
Second Reading — Committee negatived—Sheriff Courts (Scotland)* (179); East India Loan* (166); Prisons (Scotland) * (184).
Second Reading — Committee negatived — Third Reading—Winter Assizes* (190), and passed.
Committee — Report — Metropolitan Board of Works (Money)* (183); Public Libraries Acts Amendment (No. 2) * (185).
Report—Canal Boats* (176).
Third Reading—Prisons (Ireland) * (178); Destructive Insects* (188), and passed.

FRAUDULENT DEBTORS BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR rose to present a Bill for the punishment of Fraudulent Debtors, and to which he asked their Lordships to give a first reading. The Bill was intended to be a supple-
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  mentary measure to the Bankruptcy Bill which had gone down from their Lordships' House, but which, in consequence of the pressure of other Business, had been stopped in its progress through the House of Commons. Of course, he had no idea that any progress beyond the first reading in their Lordships' House could be made this Session with the Bill which he was now about to lay on the Table, but he wished to lay it on the Table in order that it might be considered by the country during the Recess.
  Bill for the punishment of Fraudulent Debtors, and for other purposes, presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read la. (No. 192.)

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).

  PETITIONS.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHpresented a large number of Petitions from Bodies and places in Scotland on the subject of the Scotch Education Act. The noble Duke said, that these Petitions were all very similar in tone, and their general prayer was that a permanent Board of Education might be established in Scotland in connection with the Board of Education in London. The Petitioners urged their prayer more especially on the ground that the standard of education in Scotland, in their opinion, had been lowered, instead of raised by the present Code. They did not deny that some special subjects, such as elementary instruction in Botany or other particular branches of science had been introduced; but they did not consider that the higher branches of education had met with that encouragement that they ought to have met with. Scotch gentlemen and farmers complained very bitterly that the present education in parochial schools did not include the higher branches, such as Latin and mathematics. As their Lordships were aware, it was the habit of boys in Scotland to go to the Universities at a much earlier age than in England, and formerly they were enabled to acquire in the parochial schools all the instruction in Latin and mathematics which they required. They attributed the change, to a considerable extent, to the fact that it was more profitable to the schoolmaster to return a great number of children in the lower branch of purely

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  elementary education, than to devote their time and attention to the higher subjects of classics and mathematics. This was not the feeling of a few, or of a Party on one side or the other, but it was almost universal in Scotland, and instead of becoming lessened, gathered strength daily. Indeed, it must be a pretty strong indication of their feeling upon the standard of education when they found among the Petitions sent to their Lordships so many Petitions from schoolmasters in Scotland, who themselves considered that it had been unnecessarily and unwisely lowered. He hoped his noble Friend the Lord President would take the matter into consideration. The Government seemed to forget that in England elementary education had not been furnished to the people till recently; but in Scotland the case was quite different, because there an excellent system of education had been furnished for upwards of 200 years in parochial schools. It might be said that the children could go to secondary schools; but in Scotland few of them existed, except in large towns; and the children of parents who resided in the pastoral and agricultural districts required good instruction quite as much as the children who lived in cities or large towns. There were many places where the inhabitants complained most bitterly of the loss they had sustained by not being able to obtain for their children that superior instruction in the parochial schools which they had afforded for the last 250 years, and they prayed their Lordships' serious attention to the subject. This was, indeed, no light matter, and he himself saw the necessity of remedying the evil, and he sincerely hoped that by the few words he had said he would have drawn his noble Friend's attention to it.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that as his noble Friend had so pointedly alluded to him, and asked his attention to the Petitions he had presented, he should be wanting in that respect he felt for him if he did not rise and acknowledge the appeal that he had made. At the same time, while admitting, as he did, the immense importance of the subject to which his noble Friend had alluded, he could not altogether agree with the conclusions at which he had arrived. He knew the question had excited considerable discussion and controversy in Scotland; but
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  he believed that, on the whole, the education given in the parochial schools of Scotland was not inferior to that afforded in former years. If he had been aware that the subject was going to be brought forward, and that his noble Friend was about to enter into details, he should have been prepared to give him a more complete answer to his appeal than he could do at the present time. He thought that if his noble Friend would read the Report which had been issued by the Scotch Commission of Council on Education, he would see in it figures and information which would induce him to modify some of the statements he had made. He would remind the noble Duke that the general subject of education, not alone in Scotland, but also in England and Ireland, was of such magnitude and importance that it never could be absent from the minds of any Government; and Her Majesty's present Government had shown their desire to deal with the question by the Acts they had passed or were still considering. He would assure the noble Duke that the subject of education in Scotland would receive the highest consideration at their hands.
  Petitions ordered to lie on the Table.

  SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  (The Lord Chancellor.)
  (NO. 179.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, it affected the constitution of the Sheriff Courts of Scotland. The Bill consisted of two parts—the first of which was applicable to the appointment and tenure of office of the Sheriff Substitute, and the second regarded the extension of the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Courts. With regard to the first part, the Sheriffs Substitute were at present appointed by the Sheriff, by whom they were also removable; but the persons appointed must be certified by the Lord President of the Court of Session and the Lord Justice Clerk as competent for the duties of the office. It was proposed that in future the appointment of the Sheriffs Substitute should be transferred to the Secretary of State, and that he should also be em-

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  powered to remove them; but that they should only be appointed on the condition that a report should be made by the Lord President and the Lord Justice Clerk of their fitness. As to the Procurators Fiscal, at present they were appointed and dismissed at the pleasure of the Sheriff. It was proposed that the Sheriff should retain the appointment, but subject to the approval of the Secretary of State, and that they might be removed in the same way as the Sheriffs Substitute was now removed. "With regard to the extension of the jurisdiction of the Court, at present the Sheriff Courts in Scotland had only jurisdiction as to movable, and not with respect to heritable, property. Originally it was intended by this Bill to give them jurisdiction over heritable property to the annual value of £20; but, while the Bill was passing through the other House, that jurisdiction was extended to £50 or £100 of capital value; but this being a large extension of the jurisdiction, it was coupled with the right on the part of the defender of removing the cause to the Court of Session. Guarded in that way, he thought their Lordships would be of opinion that the measure was one of which they could approve.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

SOUTH AFRICA BILL.

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Order of the Day for Consideration of Commons Amendments, read.
  Commons' Amendments considered.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in moving that the Commons' Amendments in this Bill be considered, said he thought it was desirable he should make a few observations on the long Paper of Amendments which had come up with this Bill from the Commons; though, at the same time, he did not intend to ask their Lordships to disagree with any of them. The Amendments seemed to resolve themselves into several classes. There were omissions from the Bill as it left their Lordships' House. Those omissions were for the most part matters of detail. Then there were additions of certain financial clauses which it had not been thought right
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  to insert in their Lordships' House. Again, there were additions which might be described as comparatively unimportant additions of detail; and, lastly, there were some four or five Amendments of considerable importance. To the latter class only he need address himself. The first clause to which he would call attention was Clause 10. It provided for what was called the constitution of the Privy Council. In South Africa the Privy Council meant what it meant in other British Colonies—not a body constituted as was the Privy Council in this country, but rather an Executive Council, or Cabinet of the day. He could not help thinking that there must have been some misapprehension with respect to the Amendments made in that clause. Under the clause as it originally stood, it was provided that the persons who were to be Members of the Privy Council should be from time to time summoned and chosen by the Governor General from among the Members of the Union Parliament—that direction indicating clearly, as he should have thought, that the Members were to be taken from the Parliament and from the majority, and consequently persons who had the confidence of that body. The words "from among the Members of the Union Parliament" had been struck out in the other House. He regretted the omission—not that he thought that it affected the substance of the Bill in the slightest degree; but he would point out that the Members of the South African Cabinet would be chosen just as the Members of the Canadian Cabinet were chosen—from among those Members of the Parliament who had the confidence of that Parliament; so that the clause as altered did not indicate any departure from the principle of self-government as understood by Her Majesty's Government, but would be strictly in accordance with those principles. The second point to which he desired to call attention was a very important one in itself. Clause 25 dealt with the constitution of the House of Assembly. To that clause had been added this Proviso—
  "Provided always that in the apportionment of members, and in the determination of the qualifications of electors and members, provision shall be made for the due representation of of the Natives in the Union Parliament and in the Provincial Councils in such a manner as

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  shall be deemed by Her Majesty to be without danger to the stability of the Government."
  He thought that in the Bill as it originally stood the Native question, as it was called, had been sufficiently provided for; but though, no doubt, the subject was one of great difficulty and delicacy, he himself entertained no apprehension with respect to it; and, as the Amendment only gave expression to views which he had long held, at the same time that it indicated the greatest confidence in Her Majesty's Government and the Colonial Office, he should be the last person to make any objection to the addition of such a Proviso as this. He thought it most desirable on every ground that, if practicable, the Natives should find some representation in one or both the branches of the Legislature. There had been among them a singular growth of wealth and a singular growth of intelligence; but as between different parts of the country that progress had been very unequal, so that among the Natives there was to be found the greatest barbarism and a high standard of intelligence. Therefore, the question how far you could give effect to the principle of introducing a Native element into the Colonial Legislature would be in this, as in the other Colonies, a question of great difficulty. The precedents were few, and he could not say that they indicated so complete a success as might be desired. The only case which he could call to mind of the latter character was that of New Zealand, where four Members were returned by the whole of the Maories to serve in in Parliament. That had succeeded fairly; but he doubted if the success was more than fair. Then there was the case of Fiji; but there the Natives, instead of forming part of the Legislature had been made, in the persons of their Chiefs, magistrates to administer justice amongst various tribes, and so far as it had gone that experiment had been attended with success. At the Cape the Natives enjoyed the franchise equally with the Colonists; and he said now, as he had said before, that the policy pursued at the Cape was a wise, humane, and liberal policy, and had produced the fruits it deserved. In Natal, where the Government laboured under exceptional difficulties, the White population being immensely out-numbered by the Natives, there was no
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  representation of the Natives, except by means of an arrangement come to between the Colonial Government and the Chiefs of tribes. He saw no reason why the Cape should make any alteration in its present system; and, as regarded Natal, he hoped the Natives would be gradually raised in the capacity of exercising the franchise as time went on. He believed, however, that in respect of the Cape, or the Transvaal, or Natal there could not be a rigid rule; the rule must be elastic, so as to be adapted to the different circumstances of the various Colonies at various eras. There must be a gradual exercise of the franchise by the Natives as the Colony itself increased in wealth and intelligence. He, for one, therefore heartily accepted the addition to the clause, inasmuch as it embodied very much his own views and was, moreover, an improvement to the measure. The 45th clause referred to the Provincial Councils. As the Bill stood, it provided that they should consist of one Chamber. The Colonial Office thought that was the wisest course. At the same time the Cape, as was well known, had two Chambers, and he saw no objection, providing the requisite materials could be obtained, why the South Africa Colonies should not have two Chambers in the Provincial Councils. In Clause 61, it was provided that the Queen, by Order in Council, might authorize the Governor of the Cape or of Natal to annex to either of those Colonies the outlying districts. The words "or of Natal" had been struck out of the clause. He had no objection to raise to that Amendment; but he wished to point out that the provision in the clause tad been introduced with reference to Griqualand and the Transvaal. As to the former, the question did not arise, because a Bill had already passed through the Cape Legislature for the annexation of Griqualand; but as to the Transvaal, there would be a possibility, if the clause passed as it was, of the' annexation of that territory to Natal. Where no representative institutions had been given, he apprehended that the power rested with the Crown of annexing, if it thought it desirable that annexation should take place. He was far from saying that it was desirable to annex the Transvaal to Natal—there were primâ facie reasons for which it

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  would seem desirable. Geographically, they were connected with each other; their dangers were the same, for the Zulu kingdom overshadowed both; and, lastly, the population of both were of the same race. In addition to those reasons there would be political advantages in the annexation, both parties consenting; and, provided that consent were signified before representative institutions were given to the Transvaal, then he held that it would be within the power of the Crown to annex it to Natal. He did not, however, wish to be understood as expressing an opinion that in all the circumstances such an annexation would be desirable, and he had no objection to the adoption of the Amendment made by the Commons. The other House had added to the Bill, after Clause 61, a Proviso that the powers conferred on the Crown with reference to the first establishment of the Union, should not be exercised after the 1st of August, 1852—which Proviso limited the operation of the Bill to five years. The Bill itself was a permissive Bill. Very great powers, he acknowledged, were given to the Crown under the Bill; and when the proposal was made to him by a right hon. Gentleman that at the end of five years Parliament should have an opportunity of re-considering the whole question, he frankly confessed his concurrence in the proposal. Then in the Commons, Clause 4 of the Bill had been omitted. It provided that in the event of the admission into the Union of the Orange Free State or the South African Republic, all persons at the time resident and enjoying the rights of citizenship within the State and Republic respectively, and not being already British subjects, should be declared naturalized subjects of the Queen. The Under Secretary for the Colonies had consented to the omission of that clause, because as all those resident within the Province would become ipso facto British subjects; it was thought that serious objections might be raised by foreigners against compulsory naturalization. Compulsory naturalization might place foreigners—Germans and others—in a difficulty. Again, hitherto in our Colonies naturalization was confined to the Colony itself, and such a clause would confer a superior kind of naturalization to that given by a Colony. He thought, therefore, there was good reason for
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  omitting the clause. So much for the Commons' Amendments to the Bill. Now, a word as to the Transvaal. Up to the date of their latest advices, the state of things was gradually settling down. The rebellious Chief Secocoeni had submitted; the Zulu King had retired; the Queen's authority was now received with hearty enthusiasm in an unbroken line from one end of the territory to the other; and Sir Theophilus Shepstone was welcomed in every part of the country without one dissentient voice. It was only a short time since the annexation had been effected; but so far as one could judge by the events which had occurred since then, the measure appeared to be justified by results. There were in this country at this time two delegates who had come here to lay before the Government the case of the defunct Republic; and though he did not exactly know the sources of their authority, he had thought it right to listen to whatever arguments they could put forward. He told them frankly, on the part of the Government, that so far as any reversal of policy it was idle to speak about that; but in respect of all questions of detail bearing on the happiness and prosperity of the Transvaal, he would be glad to hear them and give weight to anything they might say. And he was bound to say that they had hitherto received what he had stated in the most reasonable spirit, and he had great hopes that satisfactory relations might arise in consequence of those communications. But he wished further to say that he had not received a single Memorial or Petition from any part of the Transvaal objecting to the annexation, or praying for a reversal of that policy. One Petition of that kind had come to the Colonial Office, but it was from a Dutch population who lived in the Cape Colony and at a distance of 1,000 miles from the Transvaal. He thought it was rather hard that a population living at such a distance from the Transvaal, and enjoying the advantages of being under the rule of the British Government, should grudge that advantage to the people of the Transvaal. It was under those circumstances the Bill again came before their Lordships. If he did not think all the Commons' Amendments absolutely necessary, they did not in the slightest degree interfere with the principle or the substance of

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  the measure. He believed himself that the Bill when passed would go out to the Cape with greater weight than had been attached to any former measure relating to the Colonies. The history of this Bill was a memorable one. The Bill would live in the Parliamentary history of England as much as in the history of the Colony. It had been stated that this measure in its passage through its various stages in the House of Commons had received little or no discussion. Speaking from what had appeared in the ordinary sources of information, he ventured to say that never was any assertion less well founded. He had observed with satisfaction that a right hon. Gentleman, than whom there was no one more competent to speak, from his own knowledge and his own Ministerial experience, had expressed his belief that the Bill had been debated in the House of Commons with a fulness not known in the case of any other colonial measure. He would now express his gratitude to the Opposition in that and the other House of Parliament for the frank and hearty support they had given to the Bill. There had been great difficulties in the way of the Bill, and that support was as valued as it had been valuable. The principle of the Bill had been affirmed by enormous majorities, and the Bill went out with the imprimatur not only of Her Majesty's Government and of the Leaders on both sides, but of the maturely-expressed opinion of the House of Commons. He begged to move that the Commons' Amendments be considered and agreed to.
  Motion agreed, to.
  Amendments considered, and agreed to, accordingly.

  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE BILL.
  Commons reason for disagreeing to one of the amendments made by the Lords considered (according to order): Lords amendment to which the Commons have disagreed not insisted on.

  EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.—(No. 166.)
  (The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in moving that the Bill be now read the
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  second time, said, the purpose of the measure was to enable the Indian Government to raise £5,000,000 by way of loan. It was rendered necessary principally to meet the expenditure occasioned by the Famine; but it did not differ in form from ordinary Bills of the same kind, except that in it power was taken by the Government of India to follow the precedent recently initiated by the Imperial Government, to raise part of the loan by the issue of India Exchequer Bonds redeemable from time to time. Language of a desparing character was used sometimes with regard to the finances of India; and therefore he would like to say a few words in order to indicate to their Lordships that the Government of India in raising this loan was not committing an act of great financial imprudence, as had been said, and that there was no reason to entertain any apprehensions in respect of the financial course that Government had of late years pursued. The doubts that had been expressed on that subject appeared to rise principally from the fact that the expenditure of the Indian Government on works expected to be reproductive and its ordinary expenditure were mixed up together. Of course, it was necessary to take both into consideration when you asked what were the prospects of the Indian Government; but they ought to be taken separately, if the precise position of the Indian Government was to be accurately ascertained. Now, if they separated the expense on works expected to be reproductive from the ordinary expense, it would be found that the course pursued by that Government, since the great expenditure of the Indian Mutiny was surmounted, had not only not been a wasteful one, but taking the whole 15 years into consideration a fair surplus had been maintained. Taking the accounts of the 15 years from 1861–2 to 1875–6 inclusive, including expenditure on Famine, but excluding that on Public Works Extraordinary from 1867, the aggregate surpluses of the years in surplus amounted to £13,151,411, and the aggregate of deficits in deficit years to £10,209,191, making the balance of surplus £2,942,220. He thought that was sufficient to show that apart from Public Works there had been nothing wasteful or imprudent in the management of the finances of India, and that there was no

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  cause for gloomy apprehensions respecting that management in future. Then, if the Budget in respect of reproductive works also were examined, it would be found that things were not unfavourable. The total capital expenditure on irrigation works and on State and guaranteed railways had been £115,800,000, while in 1875–6 the net revenue from railways and irrigation works was £4,727,219, giving a net return on the capital expenditure on those undertakings of little more than 4 per cent. It was to be remembered, moreover, that in those works were included not only those which were opened and were yielding revenue, but those, like the Burmah and Indus Valley Railways, and the Soane Canal, which were still under construction, and yielding no revenue whatever. He thought, therefore, that the financial management of the Indian Government had been frugal and prudent. He need hardly tell their Lordships that the prospect was improving, for the new works were beginning to yield some revenue, while the old works were yielding more. Before he sat down he desired to say a word with respect to the Famine which was the main cause of this loan. The prospects in the Famine districts, as their Lordships might have gathered from the telegrams in the newspapers, were not quite so gloomy as they were about a fortnight ago. A considerable quantity of rain had fallen, and a certain portion of the crops had been saved; but nevertheless it was to be feared that a considerable and aggravated amount of distress must continue for several months from this time. He was anxious to take this opportunity of removing an impression which had got abroad, and for which he was certain there was no foundation whatever. There was an impression that the Government of India were less eager and less liberal than on former occasions in relieving this terrible distress. There was no ground for that belief. From the very first his noble Friend near him (the Earl of Carnarvon), who was occupying the India Office while he (Lord Salisbury) was away, warned the Indian Government that the utmost care must be taken and no expense must be spared to preserve human life, and the Indian Government cordially accepted the duty. He believed the false impression to which he had alluded had arisen from a controversy which had gone on with respect
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  to the proper amount to be given to the labourer, or to what was known as "the Temple wage." Sir Richard Temple maintained that a pound of rice was sufficient to enable the labourers to work, and he was very justly of opinion that it was not right to give them more than was absolutely necessary to keep them in health. In that view he was supported by the medical authorities in Calcutta and opposed by the medical authorities in Madras; and a somewhat embittered controversy, turning mainly upon the number of grains of nitrogen and carbon necessary to enable an Indian labourer to work, continued for some time. But it must not be supposed from this controversy that any restriction was laid on the Madras Government as to the amount of relief. The reports, however, were so persistent, that they at the India Office, though they knew that no new restriction had been imposed, were yet inclined to think that some representation had been made on the subject by the Supreme Government; and accordingly he sent this telegram to the Viceroy—
  "Accounts reach me from many quarters expressing serious fear that insufficiency of relief food on famine works, especially in Madras, is producing diseases of exhaustion, and will end in great mortality. Matter requires extreme vigilance, and if there is any real cause for apprehension it will be better not to place too much restriction on Local Government. Our medical authorities are alarmed by accounts, official and other."
  The reply received was as follows:—
  "We have placed no restriction on Local Government in this matter. If the Government of Madras were satisfied that the present rate was unduly low, they would doubtless raise it. We have asked Bombay to consider expediency of giving Sunday wage, which is allowed in Madras, but not in Bombay."
  Accordingly, within ten days or a fortnight the Madras Government did raise the rate. Therefore there was no ground for thinking that the Government of India prevented the Madras Government from following its humane instincts. It was said that there had been a very great amount of mortality—he had seen a telegram which put it at as high a figure as 500,000. He inquired of the Madras Government as to the accuracy and certainty of that statement, and he received a reply indicating that the estimates of the mortality as yet rested upon somewhat conjectural grounds, but that whatever the mortality was it had arisen,

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  not from starvation, but from epidemic disease—the two diseases of cholera and small-pox. Everyone knew that the famine had stimulated both diseases. The want of rain had lowered all the wells and diminished the quantity and purity of the water, and, as everyone knew, there was nothing which determined the virulence and spread of cholera so much as a tainted supply of water. In the same way with regard to smallpox. It was a disease which could be dealt with so long as the people could be isolated; but it was impossible to isolate them when they had to be relieved in vast multitudes. The number relieved amounted now to 2,300,000, and it was impossible to isolate them when collected on relief works and in relief camps. It necessarily followed, therefore, that small-pox had its terrible opportunity. He did not dispute that suffering had occurred in many cases where relief came to people whose strength had been reduced by want—it was not, however, because relief had been denied; the difficulty was to get people to ask for it— the officers had to hunt the starving people and infirm men and women and children, and induce them to come and ask for the relief which was ready to be given to them. In a vast Presidency such as Madras, with a population in the famine districts numbering 16,000,000, and a territory, taking Mysore with Madras, extending over 100,000 square miles—not far from twice the area of England and Wales—the agency of relief must be conducted to an enormous degree by Native means. The 150 covenanted Civil servants could do very little themselves—they could only superintend the vast machinery of Natives. The Government had been obliged to employ the Native village headmen to hunt out these poor people; but, unfortunately, as Sir Richard Temple had lamented again and again, they were hardly equal to their opportunities and duties. Those headmen were appointed in Madras upon the hereditary principle, but it had not answered well. They were perfectly capable of doing their ordinary duties with efficiency and success, but they had not acted up to the expectations formed of them in the early period of the famine. They had hardly appreciated the responsibility, the weight and the necessity of the duties cast upon them; and the fact must be
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  admitted that in the early part of the year many persons were not relieved until their physical strength was considerably depressed, and cholera and small-pox found them an easy prey. In the Presidency of Madras there was a comparatively inactive population. The difference between them and the population of Northern India was seen in the enormous amount of gratuitous relief given in the famine-stricken districts of Madras, for which no work was required. It was twice as much as that which it had been found necessary to give in Behar. In Behar the maximum number relieved was 2,100,000, against 2,300,000 in Madras, yet in Behar the proportion of gratuitous relief had been kept at a comparatively low point, which had not been possible in Madras. He would not be doing his duty or acting in accordance with his own feelings if he did not say how deeply we were indebted to the untiring and unsparing exertions of the officers employed, in relieving the famine. The Viceroy, Sir Philip Wodehouse, the Duke of Buckingham, and Sir Richard Temple had all devoted themselves unsparingly to the duty, and in spite of the ravages of disease they had done so in the main with signal and merited success. He wished to add that the Viceroy had wisely determined to go himself to the distressed districts, and no doubt his presence there would animate the officers and render it more easy to work the administrative machinery for the relief of the famine. He begged to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" —(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKwished to express his deep sympathy with the population suffering, by no fault of their own, from this great calamity. It had fallen on a people loyal, industrious, and patient, charitable to their relations, obedient to the law, grateful to the officers who had to deal with them, and entertaining an affection for the Government which came forward to assist them in time of distress. With regard to the nature of the famine, he would remark that the information presented to the House was not recent, for it extended only to last January; but it was apparent from the Papers themselves, and

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  from the statement of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State, that the calamity was most serious, especially because this was the second year in which there had been a failure of the customary rain. In the month of January last the number of persons receiving relief in Madras and Bombay exceeded 1,500,000; 1,250,000 in Madras, and more than 300,000 in Bombay. It was then expected that when the annual rain fell in April the distress would be alleviated, and that it would nearly cease in July; but so far from that being the case, the number of persons now being relieved was stated by the Secretary of State to exceed 2,000,000. That fact, he feared, showed that the famine was not likely to be soon at an end, and that grave difficulties would exist in meeting it for at least some months more. It was remarkable that in times of drought there often happened a second failure of rain, which greatly intensified the danger. Thus in 1874, the rain necessary to secure the rice crop in Bengal, which should have fallen in August, did not come till September, and a repetition of the scarcity of the previous year was imminent. Remembering the very great responsibilities of a Ruler at that time, he felt that the most generous support should be given to all the Indian authorities, and he knew from personal experience their energy, their ability, and their devotion. He was sure that the Viceroy had rightly determined to visit the distressed districts. He had been associated in India with the Duke of Buckingham, upon whom the most serious responsibility had fallen, and no man could be more zealous in the performance of his duties. He thought that the Government of India had done wisely in sending Sir Richard Temple to the spot, for his previous experience in Bengal must have enabled him to offer valuable advice and assistance, and in accepting that duty Sir Richard Temple had given another instance of his high public spirit. He rejoiced that in Bombay the greatest stress of famine was over; the measures taken to meet the distress there appeared to have been successful, and reflected great credit upon Sir Philip Wodehouse and the officers of the Bombay Government. So far as he was informed regarding the proceedings of the Government of India, he had but little to offer in the way of
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  criticism or suggestion. The one object was to prevent loss of life, taking care, at the same time, to interfere with trade as little as possible. He did not, however, observe that the plan of making advances of money or food to the cultivators which was found very successful in Bengal had been adopted. He had talked in 1873 with a Mahomedan nobleman in Calcutta, and on asking him him what measures he would take in the event of a famine in the State of which he was Prime Minister, had been told that the best plan would be to advance money to the cultivators, who would return it in good years. Those who had to deal with an Indian famine were brought into contact with an enormous number of small cultivators, especially in Madras, where in one district there were 50,000 occupiers of less than 5 acres, and in another 80,000 holding less than 10. The State stood in the place of a landlord to these men, and it was very important to help them as much as possible. He would also suggest that the Secretary of State and the Government here might assist the Indian Government in providing officers to deal with the distress. In 1873, great difficulty was caused by the want of proper supervision. On the occurrence of such a calamity the first thing which ought to be done was to strengthen the administrative Staff to the greatest possible extent, and he could not but think that if the Government required such assistance many officers of the Army in this country who had been in India and possessed some knowledge of the language would volunteer for the service: most valuable work was done by officers for the Army in Bengal during the distress of 1873. He was satisfied from his own experience under somewhat similar circumstances, that the noble Marquess fully appreciated the gravity of the situation, and would, to the best of his ability, assist the Government of India, and he merely threw out these suggestions for what they were worth. As the Government of India would have a grave calamity to contend with, he would suggest that it would be wise to postpone, at all events, for the present, certain administrative changes that were contemplated in the Punjab. He would not discuss their merits now, but only observe that so far as he knew they were disapproved by all those men

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  who had long experience of that part of India, and that at least some further consideration might well be bestowed upon the proposals. The Secretary of State had not taken advantage, as had occasionally been done before, of the present opportunity to make a statement of the events of the past year in India; and, therefore, he (Lord Northbrook) would abstain from making any such general observations. He would only express his sorrow at the loss which the British Government had sustained by the recent death of three eminent men. Sir Jung Bahadur, the de facto ruler of Nepal, a loyal ally of the Queen who rendered essential services during the Mutiny; Maharaja Romanath Tajore, the highly respected leader of Hindoo society in Calcutta, who was always ready to give his valuable advice and assistance to the Government; and Sir Jametsetjee Jeejeebhoy, who filled a somewhat similar position in Bombay. Both these Native gentlemen he (Lord Northbrook) was proud to reckon among his personal friends. Turning to the Bill before the House, and to the state of the finances of India, he had been much interested by the able financial statements which had been made public by Sir John Strachey, the financial Member of Council, which left nothing to be desired in the way of information which could be supplied by the Government of India. The Estimates of the current year, 1877–8, showed that, including the cost of famine relief, there would be a deficit of £621,000. The cost of famine relief was expected to amount to £2,150,000, so that the apparent surplus, if there had been no Famine, was £1,528,000; but Sir John Strachey had correctly pointed out that the effect of Bills like the present one, by which money was raised in England for the service of India, was to diminish the remittances from India to England, and so to bring about a considerable saving in the cost of making those remittances. Making due allowance for this saving, Sir John Strachey calculated that the real surplus this year, if there had been no Famine, would have been £928,000, of which £500,000 was to accrue from new taxes to be imposed, and from the Provincial Governments undertaking certain charges for a less sum than had hitherto been defrayed on that account by the Go-
  660
  vernment of India. Comparing the financial condition of India in the last two years with the three preceding years the results were that the surplus, excluding Famine charges, of the three years 1873, 1874, and 1875 amounted to £6,791,499, or at the rate of about £2,250,000 a-year. The cost of Famine relief in Bengal was £6,698,312, which was met out of the surplus of those three years. In 1876 the surplus fell to £624,800, and in 1877, without the new taxes and the arrangements with the Provincial Governments, it was estimated at only £428,000. This unsatisfactory condition of things was mainly occasioned by the increased cost of the remittances from India to England which were required to pay the interest on Debt incurred in England, and other Home Charges. The price of silver, as against gold, had very greatly fallen in the last three years. Consequently the loss by exchange had increased from £500,000 in 1874 to £1,000,000 in 1875, and to £1,500,000 in 1876. He wished to express his entire concurrence with the conclusion at which the Government of India and Her Majesty's Government had arrived, not to change the standard of value in India from silver to gold, or to adopt certain other proposals which had been urged upon them. If there were no question as to the rate of exchange it would, he thought be right to borrow money, wherever it could be raised on the easiest terms; but the operation of exchange with respect to receipts in silver in India and payments in gold in England made it advisable, and it had been rightly determined by the Secretary of State, that the loans required by the Government of India should be raised as much as possible in India in silver, and that no more than was absolutely necessary should be raised in England in gold. He wished to ask from the noble Marquess an explanation of a transaction which took place last year which appeared to him to be inconsistent with this principle. The Government of India reckoned that for the service of 1876 it was necessary to raise £2,640,000 in England; but it appeared from Sir John Strachey's statements that £4,600,000 had been borrowed in England, or £1,960,000 more than was required. This excess was partly balanced by the purchase by the

  661
  Government of India of rupee paper in India to the amount of £1,250,000; but more debt was incurred by about £750,000 than was required, and, moreover, £1,250,000 of Debt, the interest on which was payable in India in silver, had been exchanged for a similar amount on which the interest would have to be paid in England in gold. There was certainly a saving in the loss by exchange for the year, because the remittances from India were decreased by this transaction, but the ultimate result seemed to be disadvantageous to the finances of India. Famines had occurred so frequently in India during late years, that the Government were in his opinion right in endeavouring to raise some additional means to provide for their cost, and he was entirely satisfied with one step which had been taken—the giving more powers to local Governments, at the same time providing some relief to the finances of the central Government. Whether the manner in which it was proposed that additional taxation should be raised was the most desirable to adopt he would not say, and he felt the difficulty of throwing upon the local Governments the task of providing by taxation for the cost of public works, for instance, of irrigation, in the construction of which the people presumed to be benefited had no concern. He was glad to find that no proposal for the re-imposition of the Income Tax was made, as it had caused great discontent, and he might observe in passing that it was not the intention of Lord Mayo to re-impose it when it expired in 1872. There was one part of Sir John Strachey's Financial Statement on which he could not look without some degree of apprehension—he alluded to the recent increase in the military expenditure. The gross military expenditure, he found, which had averaged about £15,500,000 for the four years ending with 1874, had since risen to £16,250,000, an increase of nearly £800,000, which brought the military expenditure nearly back to what it was in 1869. That increase, he was aware, was in some measure due to the increase of pay of the British and Native troops, which he believed to be necessary and right, but there were other items, especially in connection with the Home Charges, of which no
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  sufficient explanation had been given. The "Home Charges of Her Majesty's Regiments serving in India" had increased from £500,000 in 1874 to £660,000 in 1876, and Sir John Strachey could only say that this was "the result of much negotiation with the War Office at home, and does not seem susceptible of definite explanation in India." Their Lordships might remember that in 1872 the Duke of Argyll protested strongly against the amount of these charges upon Indian revenues. There had subsequently been a Parliamentary inquiry, in the course of which the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) gave evidence to the effect that it required constant vigilance to prevent other Departments in the State encroaching upon the rights of the Indian Exchequer. Sir John Strachey appeared to be greatly impressed with the tendency of these charges to increase, for he used the following remarkable words:—
  "That the Indian revenues are liable to have great charges thrown upon them without the Government of India being consulted, and almost without any power of remonstrance, is a fact the gravity of which can hardly be exaggerated."
  He (Lord Northbrook) commended this subject to the particular attention of the Secretary of State. He wished also to ask for some explanation of the incidence of the cost of the recent operations in the Straits Settlements upon the British and Indian revenues respectively. A year or two ago Indian Forces were employed at Perak, and he believed that all the ordinary expenses of the troops so engaged were borne by the Government of India. In the 55th section of the Government of India Act there was the following important statutory provision with regard to such charges:—
  "Except for preventing or repelling actual invasion of Her Majesty's Indian possessions, or under other sudden or urgent necessity, the revenues of India shall not, without the consent of both Houses of Parliament, be applicable to defray the expenses of any military operations carried on beyond the external frontiers of such possessions by Her Majesty's forces charged upon such revenues."
  The Straits Settlements were formerly part of British India, but by the 29 & 30 Vict. c. 115, they were separated from it, and in the words of the enactment, ceased to be part of India "for the

  663
  purpose and within the meaning" of the Government of India Act. It seemed, therefore, that the consent of their Lordships' House and of the other House of Parliament was necessary before the revenues of India could lawfully be used to defray the cost of the operations at Perak. In the case of the Abyssinian War, an Address to the Crown was moved in order to comply with the requirements of the law under similar circumstances, but no such Address had been moved to meet the case of these operations. True, the charge in question was not very large, but the principle involved was one of the greatest importance. With respect to the future prospects of Indian finance, he believed that the figures given by Sir John Strachey, and the expectations founded upon them, were sound. There was much greater elasticity than had been supposed to exist in the main sources of Indian revenue, and he trusted that under a steady and economical administration of the finances, if only the customary rainfall took place in its season, we should see in a few years the satisfactory condition of the finances of India restored. It was with much satisfaction that he had heard of the prosperous financial condition of the Indian railways. This was a very hopeful sign. Another very satisfactory fact was the increase in the exports and the imports. Since the year 1874 the exports had increased at the rate of £2,000,000 sterling a-year, and the imports had increased by £ 1,000,000. The measures taken of late years by the Government of India to remove the export duties on certain commodities had had a very remarkable effect. In the case of wheat and seeds, the result was particularly striking. In 1872, before the export duty on wheat was removed, the export consisted of 320,000 cwts. of the value of £135,200. The duty was taken off in 1873, and the export gradually increased until in 1876 it reached 4,839,000 cwts. of the value of £1,673,400. The value of the seeds exported in 1874 was £2,451,900. The export duty was taken off in 1875, and the value of the exports in 1876 had increased to £4,688,600. These figures were interesting as showing the importance of removing the export duty on products in which there was a competition with other countries. With regard to taxation in India, it was clearly im-
  664
  possible at the present moment to reduce it. Indeed, in consequence of the cost of the famine in the South of India, and the fall in the price of silver, the finances of India must for some time be in a critical condition. It was obvious, therefore, that the condition of the finances did not justify any expectations being held out that the import duty of 5 per cent on cotton goods could be given up, and he regretted that the subject had been mooted by Sir John Strachey in his speech on the Budget in Calcutta, although it was afterwards explained that he had only expressed his individual opinions, and not those of the Government of India. No one could wish more than he (Lord Northbrook) did to see freedom of commerce extended, but he would be sorry to see the stability of the revenues of India imperilled, or fresh taxation imposed upon the people of India, in order to remove the grievance—no very real grievance after all— of the English manufacturers to which he was referring. In concluding, the noble Lord observed, with reference to the famine which was now hanging over the people of Southern India, that this was an occasion when economy of expenditure was not the paramount consideration. In famine, as in war, when the safety or honour of the country was concerned, the great object to aim at was success, and not economy. If nations did not grudge the employment of all the means in their power for the carrying on of war, they ought with infinitely greater reason to tax their energies and all the resources of the State to the utmost for the preservation of the lives of the people.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in reply, reminded the noble Earl (the Earl of Northbrook) that the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) only tried the experiment of making a general statement of the financial position of India on two occasions, and that on the second the noble Duke and himself were left alone in the House. He quite agreed with his noble Friend that a supply of officers in the Presidency of Madras was much needed. The Government had laid hands on every officer they could, but it was impossible to get a sufficient number of officers of the Indian Army speaking the language of the famine districts. Every officer on furlough in

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  this country had been laid hold of and sent to India to assist the Government in relieving the distress. It was perfectly true, as the noble Earl further pointed out, that in the Spring of 1876 the Indian Government borrowed a sum of money considerably in excess of what they had stated would be required. They were perfectly sensible of the inconvenience of the operation, but they were driven to it by the pressure of the silver famine which then prevailed. The same circumstances, however, were never likely to recur, and he did not anticipate that the particular inconvenience alluded to would ever again arise. With regard to the question of military expenditure, he could not help admiring the—what should he say?—the courage of his noble Friend. Before being Viceroy his noble Friend was connected with the War Office in this country, and it was precisely to the noble Lord's (Lord Cardwell's) administration that the increase in the military expenditure which his noble Friend now so justly deplored was due. The Indian Government had been in a perpetual state of feud with the War Department ever since the noble Lord (Lord Cardwell) was in Office; but he hoped some satisfactory means of adjusting their differences would soon be adopted.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

  COLONIAL STOCK BILL—(No. 189.)
  (The Earl of Carnarvon.)
  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to enable such Colonies as pleased to turn the bonds and debentures which they issued into registered stock. The Bill was considered at great length last year; it was brought almost to its final stage in the House of Commons, and had only failed on account of the lateness of the Session and of some negotiations that were going on. This Bill contemplated two forms of stock—one payable to bearer, and the other to the person named; and it provided that where it was desired the two forms should be made convertible. An
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  undertaking was given that no Imperial guarantee, direct or indirect, should attach to this stock. Many of the clauses of the Bill had been taken from the National Debt Act of 1870, and a great deal of the Bill, which would be extremely valuable both to the Colonies and to England, was due to the ability of that distinguished colonist who was Prime Minister of New Zealand for a long time, and was now Agent General for New Zealand in this country—Sir Julius Vogel. He did not say that the idea was his, but he it was that put it into the legislative shape in which the Bill now appeared before their Lordships.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

  PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL—(No. 184.)
  (The Lord President.)
  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that an Act had been passed for dealing with the prisons of England, a Bill was passing through the House dealing with the prisons in Ireland, and it was thought advisable that a Bill of a similar character should be passed for Scotland. As the reasons for dealing with this matter had been fully discussed when the Bill for England was under consideration, he should not attempt to go at any length into the subject. The objects aimed at in the three Bills were the same —namely, greater economy and more uniformity in the management of prisons and the punishment of prisoners than had hitherto been obtained. The Government would have been glad if it had been possible to introduce the Bill earlier in the Session; but, no doubt, their Lordships were aware of the proceedings which had occurred in the other House of Parliament; and it seemed to him that, instead of being open to complaint for not having introduced measures earlier, it was matter for surprise that Her Majesty's Government were able to offer to their Lordships so many useful measures dealing with so many different subjects. The Bill now before

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  the House was drawn upon the lines of the English Bill, regard being had, of course, to the peculiar circumstances of Scotland.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  Then, PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

THE EASTERN QUESTION.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM, who had placed on the Paper the following Notice:—
  "To call the attention of the House to the Eastern Question, and to the despatch addressed by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to Count Schouvaloff of the 6th of May last relative to the defence of English Interests in connection with the present War,"
  said: My Lords, it is my duty to inform your Lordships that it is not my intention to introduce the discussion on the Eastern affairs, of which I have given Notice. Some apology is due to your Lordships, for having at this late period of the Session proposed to raise a debate on a subject of such vital importance to this country; but, my Lords, it did appear to me and to other Members of your Lordships' House, that it would be well that Parliament should not be prorogued without an opportunity being afforded to this House for some expression of opinion on that momentous question. My Lords, it remains for me to say that, having received an intimation from my noble Friend at the head of Her Majesty's Government that a discussion in Parliament on the Eastern Question at this time might seriously embarrass public affairs, I have not hesitated to decline to proceed with the discussion.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, it would be only common courtesy on my part to express my sense of the forbearance of my noble Friend in meeting the suggestion I have made to him. Certainly it is the opinion of the Government that at this moment a discussion on the state of affairs in the East would not be advantageous to the public service, and might, indeed, have an injurious tendency. My Lords, I know very well that the view taken of
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  our policy by my noble Friend would have been impartial and animated by a desire to do justice to Her Majesty's Government, and I can assure him that we appreciate his motives in the course he has pursued. With regard to our policy, I will only say that having been clearly expressed it has been consistently maintained. Without entering into an unnecessary discussion, I may remind your Lordships that when this cruel and destructive war began Her Majesty's Government announced that they would adopt a policy of strict, but conditional, neutrality. The condition was that the interests of the country should not be imperilled. Your Lordships well know from the Papers that have been laid upon the Table that subsequently to that declaration a communication was made to the Russian Government which more precisely defined what in our opinion "British interests" were held to consist of; and that to this communication Her Majesty's Government received a rep]y which I think I am authorized in describing as conciliatory and friendly. The Government have no reason to doubt that Russia will in an honourable manner observe the conditions which were the subject of that correspondence; but however that may be, in any case the maintenance of those conditions is the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNquite agreed that, after the appeal made by the noble Earl at the head of the Government, his noble Friend could not persevere in calling attention to the subject. He regretted, however, that an opportunity should have been lost of re-asserting those principles of sound policy which had protected for nearly 200 years our rights in the East which were now endangered. It only remained for him to say, with profound deference, that the responsibility for the neglect of this opportunity must rest with the Government.

  WINTER ASSIZES BILL.
  Read 2a (according to order); Committee negatived; then Standing Orders Nos. XXXVII. and XXXVIII. considered (according to order), and dispensed with: Bill read 3a, and passed.
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Four o'clock.