Lords Sitting of 21 March 1876

MINUTES.
Public Bills—Committee—Patents for Inventions* (15); Council of India (Professional Appointments) (28).
Committee—Report—Telegraphs (Money)* (29).

COUNCIL OF INDIA (PROFESSIONAL APPOINTMENTS) BILL—(No. 28.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
COUNCIL OF INDIA (PROFESSIONAL APPOINTMENTS) BILL—(No. 28.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that as he had already intimated, he
  346
  thought there was much to be said in favour of the suggestion of the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll), that the three Members of the Council who were to be appointed under this Bill should not hold their offices "during the pleasure of Her Majesty." On the other hand, he did not think there was any sufficient ground for limiting the number of years during which the persons to be appointed might hold the office. When the Council was created in 1858 it was enacted that all the Members should hold office "during good behaviour." It was found, however, that in the case of the Councillors appointed on the ground of Indian experience, the value of that experience diminished with the length of subsequent residence in this country; and in 1869 the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) introduced the provision limiting the term of office on the Council of India to 15 years. But there was a minority of the Council composed of Members appointed not on the ground of Indian experience, but on that of professional qualification, and there was no reason why the value of professional qualifications should diminish in the way that of Indian experience did, or why the same principle should not be applied to the additional Members of Council as was applied in the case of County Court Judges and other judicial officers who were appointed during good behaviour. The professional qualifications were generally legal qualifications. He proposed to introduce a change in the Bill by striking out the words "during Her Majesty's pleasure," the effect of which would be that the three Councillors to be appointed under it would hold office "during good behaviour, "as was the case with the Councillors appointed under the Act of 1858.
  Amendment moved, to leave out "during the pleasure of Her Majesty," and insert "during good behaviour."
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL,while admitting the difference which the noble Marquess had pointed out between the Members appointed on the ground of Indian experience and those appointed on the ground of professional qualifications, was still disposed to think that, as a rule, the Members ought not to hold the office after 15 years. To the old Indians the work was easy and highly

  347
  interesting; and as the salary was £1,200, while their retiring pension was only £500, some of them hung on to the last. He believed that if the pension bore a larger proportion to the salary, Members would be found more willing to retire. He thought the noble Marquess would scarcely hold that there was no interval after which the professional qualifications of a lawyer became less valuable. If not, it would not be desirable that even the legal Members of the Council should hold on too long. On the second reading, the noble Marquess expressed himself as personally desirous that a pension for their services on the Council should be secured to all the Members. As the expenses of the Council of India were paid not out of English, but out of Indian money, and as the home charges of the Government of India were often thrown in our face, it might not, perhaps, be desirable to go too far in the way of liberality—even though, as a matter of fact, there was no ground for the charge of extravagance to which he had just referred; but he thought the question of raising the amount of the pension might be considered. This, however, was a matter which he was willing to leave to the noble Marquess.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYconcurred with the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) as to what he had said about the home charges. In "another place" his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for India had shown that those charges were less now than in the days of the East India Directors. As to the longevity of lawyers, he did not think age diminished much their usefulness or vigour of intellect. For example, there was still on the Council one who had been appointed under the old system—he alluded to Sir Erskine Perry, and no one could say that time had in any way diminished his qualifications. There was force in what the noble Duke had said about Members holding on too long; but, on the whole, it was better to run that chance than the chance of losing a good man by a provision making retirement obligatory at the end of 15 years.
  Amendment made, accordingly.
  The Report of the Amendment to be received on Thursday next.

UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD BILL.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEsaid, that he had been informed by what he considered good authority that a Report upon the Oxford University Bill had been made by a Committee of the Hebdomadal Council, and he was very desirous that before they discussed this question further, the Report should be placed upon the Table of the House. The Hebdomadal Council had always been consulted in all matters that affected the Colleges, and he thought if they were considered in regard to this Bill, it would be desirable that their Lordships should have before them any expression of opinion that that Council might make before they proceeded with any legislation on the University; and it was still more desirable in the present instance, because the Bill proposed to deal with the funds of the Colleges. He would, therefore, ask the Secretary of State for India, Whether it is the fact that the Hebdomadal Council of the University of Oxford have appointed a Committee to examine and report on the Oxford University Bill; and, if so, whether he will place himself in communication with the Hebdomadal Council, with the view of laying their Report on the Table of this House?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, there was no objection whatever to the production of any Resolution of the Hebdomadal Council; but he understood that to-day the Bill had been laid before the meeting of the Convocation for their opinion, and no doubt the Resolution itself would also be laid before the Convocation. They, therefore, proposed to wait until he had the opinion of the Convocation, either reported itself to the House by Petition, or by communication to him. At all events, it would be laid before Parliament.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEasked the noble Marquess whether he expected that the Resolution would reach their Lordships before the Bill was in Committee.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYreplied that he did.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.