MOTION FOR RETURNS. (Hansard, 26 June 1876)

VISCOUNT GOUGH

rose to move for Copies of all Correspondence between the Lords of Her Majesty's Treasury and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland with the Commissioners of National Education on the subject of the withdrawal of the commission allowed to teachers of National Schools in Ireland on the purchase of books and requisites in the years 1874 393 and 1875; also for a Return of the amount of commission allowed in each of the years 1873–4, 1874–5, and 1875–6. The noble Lord said, that in the course of the last Session of Parliament Her Majesty's Government had carried through Parliament a measure—the National School Teachers (Ireland) Act—withthe purpose of improving the position of the National School teachers in that country. Unfortunately it was left optional by the Act for the Unions to contribute or not, with the result that a very large proportion of the Unions had refused to carry out the measure. He was sorry that the Government had not brought in a Bill this Session making it imperative on the Unions to contribute; but he hoped they would find it in their power to do so next year, as the National School teachers now suffered very great hardships. In Ireland they had a most admirable system by which the National Board provided a large quantity of most useful books and other school requisites, which were supplied to the teachers at the lowest possible price, on condition that they should sell them again at a restricted price, and that they should also send a Post Office order along with their requisitions. A commission of 10 per cent had from the beginning of the system been allowed to the teachers on the sale of those books, &c.; but now that small perquisite had been withdrawn; and therefore the teachers, who were exceedingly poor, were bound to pay in advance on the stock of books they required, and were not permitted to charge any more for them than they used to do. It might be said that no such commission was given in England; but he understood that the English teachers were supplied from the booksellers, from whom they received a certain percentage. He thought it was a pity that that small advantage should be denied to the Irish teachers for the sake of a paltry saving of £3,000 or £4,000. It was believed in Ireland that the Commissioners of National Education had written to the Government, very strongly urging them not to withdraw that boon from the teachers—which, besides benefiting them, also tended to promote the diffusion of useful knowledge in Ireland; and he trusted that the Correspondence which had passed on the subject would be produced if the 394 interests of the public service would permit, as it would be well that the teachers should feel that the Board under which they acted was anxious for their welfare.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

said, he was by no means desirous of differing from some of the propositions which his noble Friend (Viscount Gough) had laid down—namely, that the salaries of the teachers were small, and that it was very desirable that those salaries should be, if possible, increased. His noble Friend was right in supposing that it would be inconvenient to comply with the first part of the Motion; but with regard to the second part, which related to the amount of the commission, there could be no objection whatever to such a Return being furnished. But, if he was correctly informed, that Return would show that the amount of commission received in this way had been very small. He thought his noble Friend had called it a "paltry sum;" but he would ask his noble Friend and their Lordships to consider whether such a system was desirable or ought to be continued. He could not conceive anything more undesirable than that the teacher of a school should have a commission upon the number of books which he sold to the scholars. He could not conceive anything more likely to make the teacher shut his eyes to the fact of books being destroyed, for he knew that if they were destroyed it would be to his advantage, because the scholars would be compelled to purchase more books from him. He did not say that teachers would do so on all occasions; but he thought the tendency of such a system would certainly be to make them somewhat careless. That was his reason for thinking that it would not be advisable to go back to the state of things which had prevailed heretofore. He thought that lately the salaries of the teachers had been to a 395 small extent increased. He was far from saying that their salaries should not, if it was feasible, be further increased; but, in his opinion, to allow them a commission on school books was not the most satisfactory mode of doing that.