Lords Sitting of 20 July 1876

MINUTES.
Public Bills—First Reading—Medical Act (Qualifications)* (184).
Second Reading—Nullum Tempus (Ireland)* (171).
Committee—Burghs (Scotland) Gas Supply* (172).
Committee—Report—Elver Fishing* (164).
Report—Poor Law Amendment* (181–185); Medical Practitioners* (157); Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Birmingham, &c.) (111).
Third Reading—Commons* (183); Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Bath, &c.) (168)—(Bilbrough, &c.)* (169), and passed.

UNITED STATES—EXTRADITION.

  QUESTION.
  EARL GRANVILLE,who had a Notice on the Paper to call attention to the Correspondence lately presented by the Government respecting Extradition, asked the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, At what time the Papers which had been so long promised would be in the hands of their Lordships?
  THE EARL OF DERBY: We have done all in our power to hasten the printing of the Papers to which the noble Earl refers. I understand that a certain number of copies will be ready in the course of to-morrow; but it will not be possible to circulate them generally for a day or two. There is some delay caused in the binding and putting together of so large a number of Papers; but a few copies will be ready to-morrow. I wish to add a few words on this subject—and it is with considerable reluctance I do so, because of the per-
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  sonal inconvenience which is certain to ensue. Within the last two hours I have received a confidential communication the nature of which I am not able to put before your Lordships, but I have explained it unreservedly to the noble Earl. The effect of that communication is to lead me to the conclusion that considerable inconvenience—I do not moan inconvenience to the Government, but to the public interests involved—would arise if we proceeded to a discussion to-night. In these circumstances, I have to ask the noble Earl whether he will object to postpone for a period of not more than two or three days his Motion on this subject?
  EARL GRANVILLE: With regard to the statement of the noble Earl, I have to remind the House that I gave Notice a long time ago of my intention to call attention to the Papers with the view of bringing the subject under the notice of Parliament. I have postponed that Motion from time to time on account of certain Papers not having been produced—and I am aware that this postponement has inconvenienced some of your Lordships. On the other hand, I never can undertake the responsibility of bringing forward at a certain time a Motion on Foreign Affairs when the Foreign Secretary declares that in his opinion it is unadvisable for the public interest should be brought on. The noble Earl has referred to a communication made to me. Upon my own judgment, I should not act on that communication, because I do not think anything I should say or anything my noble Friends near me might say would be an impediment to any future negotiations with the United States; but if the noble Earl takes upon himself this—that he has information which he thinks makes it desirable that the Motion should not come on to-day, I should, with great alacrity, yield to his opinion. I think it will therefore be convenient if I put down the Notice for Monday.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD'S PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BIRMINGHAM, &c.) BILL—(No. 111.)
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that the powers proposed to be conferred on the Local Government Board by these Orders

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  were excessive. The period for the repayment of money for public improvements in this case should not exceed 50 years from the date of borrowing, and he would move a clause to that effect.
  After the clause inserted in Committee moved to insert the following words:—
  ("Nothing contained in the Order hereby confirmed relating to the Borough of Birmingham shall entitle the urban authority to extend the time for the repayment of the money borrowed under the security of the Street Improvement Rate in the Act of 1851, or under the powers of the Parks Act, 1854, beyond the period of fifty years after the same have been respectively borrowed.")—(The Lord Redesdale.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he could not agree in the view taken by his noble Friend of these Provisional Orders. He must also point out that the Local Government Board had no power to alter Private Acts of Parliament except by the authority of Parliament. They possessed merely the power of making communications in the form of Provisional Orders to Parliament, as to what they considered right to be done; and their Lordships, unless there were imperious reasons for taking a contrary course, always acted upon the recommendations contained in the Reports of their own Committees. He thought therefore that, on finding that the Local Government Board had adopted this Provisional Order after full deliberation and inquiry, their Lordships would be slow to come to a different conclusion and upset the whole of the local arrangements which the Department had recommended. The powers which it was now proposed to confer on the Local Government Board were not greater than those contained in Private Bills. Last Session two Acts, passed with regard to water and gas in Birmingham, authorized the repayment of borrowed money to be extended over a period of either 75, 85, or 95 years—he did not recollect which; and the arguments which then satisfied the noble Chairman of Committees of the propriety of granting such a long period of repayment applied with redoubled force now, when Birmingham was saddled with the additional burden of the improvements under the Artizans and Labourers Dwellings Acts to the extent, he believed, of half or three-quarters of a million. He believed the Local Government Board had exercised a wise
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  discretion in adopting 75 years in this instance, and he trusted the House would not accept the Amendment.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETobjected to the Local Government Board practically legislating absolutely on these matters.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he must press his Amendment.
  LORD COTTESLOEsaid, he was glad that his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale) had pressed this subject on the attention of the House. Large sums were being advanced for local objects throughout the country. The President of the Local Government Board brought forward his Budget the other day, which showed that the sums already advanced and likely still to be advanced in that way were very considerable; but the House of Commons was hardly aware of the extended period for which those loans were made. Happening himself to be a Member of the Public Works Loan Commission, he could state that, instead of those loans being made, as they formerly used to be, for 20 or 30 years, 50 years was now the ordinary period for their repayment. It appeared to him that those periods were much too long.
  On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 34; Not-Contents 18: Majority 16.
  Resolved in the Affirmative.
  An Amendment made; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock.