Lords Sitting of 7 July 1876

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—County of Peebles Justiciary District (Scotland)* (158); Bankers' Books Evidence* (159).
Second Reading—Waterford, New Ross, and Wexford Junction Railway (Sale)* (133); Crab and Lobster Fisheries (Norfolk)* (154).
Committee—Merchant Shipping (99–160); Friendly Societies Act (1875) Amendment* (149).
Committee—Report—Saint Vincent, Tobago, and Grenada Constitution* (156).
Third Reading—Industrial and Provident Societies* (148); Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Cardiff)* (142), and passed.

METROPOLITAN GAS BILLS.
South Metropolitan Gas Light and Coke Company Bill reported with Amendments; Gaslight and Coke Company Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
LORD REDESDALEintimated that as there appeared, from the discussion that had recently taken place, to be considerable differences as to the merits of the Bills before the House promoted by the Gas Light and Coke Company and the South Metropolitan Gas Company, he thought it would be advisable that they should be referred to a Committee of the Whole House, instead of to a Select Committee in the usual course. At the proper time he would move a Resolution to that effect.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNapproved of the course suggested. He would in Committee move Amendments to the Bills, Notice of which he would give as soon as possible. It would probably be convenient that he should now state the general objections he had to the Bills. With regard to the Bill of the Gas Light and Coke Company, his chief objection to it was that the Company sought nominally to raise an additional capital of £2,000,000, but in reality that increased capital would amount to £3,000,000, because there was already power to raise £1,000,000 by loan, and this additional £2,000,000 was to be raised by a sale of the shares by public auction. The Bill also proposed to fix the initial price of their gas at

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3s. 9d. per 1,000 feet, which would enable the Company to pay a dividend of 10 per cent. This being so, the price of the £100 shares in the open market would be about £200; so that when Parliament was asked to sanction the issue of an additional £1,000,000 worth of shares, they were really adding £2,000,000 to the capital of the Company. According to the last accounts he had of those Companies, he found that in the Spring of last year there was an amalgamation between the Gas Light and the Independent and the Imperial Companies. Before their amalgamation took place the Imperial Company promoted a Bill which asked for a large increase of capital. That Bill, however, was opposed and withdrawn. Those who opposed it now complained that the Gas Light and Coke Company having taken over the Imperial were seeking by means of this Bill to obtain the same powers they previously resisted. This, he considered, was a great hardship upon those who had previously contested the matter. He understood that the Imperial and Independent Companies had power as yet unexercised of raising by shares and loans £1,200,000. If they were to have a Committee, the first question he should ask was why this enormous additional capital was required? As he was advised, it was required for renewing many of the works of the Companies; but if it was intended to expend it on a scheme of total renovation he was by no means sure that the Gas Companies were the best bodies to carry this work out. If the House considered the increase to be necessary, he urged that it should be raised by loan, and not by the sale of shares as proposed. The noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond) the other night said it might depreciate the credit of a Company if they were obliged to raise very large sums by loan only; but in the case of those now under review, they were Companies with almost unlimited powers, whose shares were quoted upon the Stock Exchange, and he therefore could not conceive that they would suffer any injury.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was sorry to interrupt the noble Earl but it was a serious violation of Order to discuss the merits of a Bill which was not before the House, or to raise questions of which no Notice had been given.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNwas in the hands of the House, but he had thought it might be convenient to indicate the points he desired to raise.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had not himself liked to interfere in a way which might appear discourteous towards the noble Earl, as they had had one or two previous discussions on that matter; but he concurred with the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, that there could scarcely be any course more inconvenient or irregular than that of entering into the merits of a Bill not before their Lord ships, merely upon a Notice of Motion being given by his noble Friend at the Table (Lord Redesdale) that on a future day, not yet even fixed, he would ask them to refer those Bills to a Committee of the Whole House. He wished to suggest, before his noble Friend at the Table made his Motion, whether it would not be more convenient that those Bills should be referred to a Select Committee, because there were points in them which could not be discussed in Committee of the Whole House. It might be necessary to call the parties and to hear evidence, and that could only be done by referring the Bills to a Select Committee. As to the initial price of 3s. 6d. per, 6000 feet, that was the price settled by the Committee presided over by Lord Cardwell.
EARL FORTESCUEwas proceeding to offer some observations to the House, when—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: objected to the continuance of an irregular discussion.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.
(The Lord President.)
MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  [Bill 99. Bill showing the Amendments proposed by Government, 99*.]
  House in Committee (according to Order.)
  Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Sending unseaworthy ships to sea a misdemeanour).
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, that this clause for the first time created a criminal offence in our colonies to be tried and punished here—namely, that of sending a ship to sea in an unseaworthy state. He would not discuss whether it was or was not politic to make that attempt without the consent of the colonies,

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  particularly the great self-governing colonies of Canada and Australia. He himself, as it happened, was responsible for the Act of 1871, which made sending an unseaworthy ship to sea to the danger of life a criminal offence, but he never contemplated creating an offence beyond the boundaries of the United Kingdon. The Government had evidently found it a difficult matter to legislate upon, because they had added to the Bill, during its passage through the other House, the Proviso—
  "A prosecution under this section shall not be instituted except by or with the consent of the Board of Trade,"
  and it was now proposed to add, "or of the Governor of the British Possession in which such prosecution takes place." He should be glad to know whether the Government had fully considered this point.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORreplied that the Government had given the question careful consideration.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 5 to 12, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.
  New Clause inserted after Clause 12 (Application to foreign ships of provisions as to detention).
  Clauses 13 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.
  New Clause inserted after Clause 18 (Provision as to survey of foreign passenger steamer or emigrant ship).
  Clause 19 agreed to.
  Clause 20 (Space occupied by certain deck cargo to be liable to dues).
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETdrew the attention of the Committee to the total absence from the Bill of any provision for limiting the quantity of gunpowder, glycerine, and other explosive substances, or for regulating the storage of such articles. In many cases these explosives were shipped on board as ordinary merchandize, without any notice to the owners or commanders; and beyond question many disasters had originated from this cause. He trusted the Government would bring up a clause to regulate the shipment of explosive materials.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYwarmly supported the proposal of the noble Duke, and hoped that it would be acted upon by the Government.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he was under the impression that some rule regulating the shipment of such goods was in force, but he would look into the subject, and would be prepared, in the event of its being necessary to take action in the matter, to bring up a clause relating to it on the Report.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 21 (Penalty for carrying deck loads of timber in winter) struck out, and the following new clause inserted in lieu thereof:—
  "After the 1st day of January, 1877, if a ship, British or foreign, arrives between the last day of October and the 16th day of April in any year at any port in the United Kingdom from any port out of the United Kingdom, carrying as deck cargo, that is to say, in any uncovered space upon deck or in any covered space not included in the cubical contents forming the ship's registered tonnage, any wood goods coming within the following description; that is to say—

  "(a) Any square, round, waney, or other timber, or any pitch pine, mahogany, oak, teak, or other heavy wood goods whatever; or

  "(b) Any more than five spare spars or store spars, whether or not made, dressed, and finally prepared for use; or

  "(c) Any deals, battens, or other light wood goods of any description to a height exceeding three feet above the deck.

  "The master of the ship, and also the owner, if he is privy to the offence, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds for every hundred cubic feet of wood goods carried in contravention of this section, and such penalty may be recovered by action or on indictment or to an amount not exceeding one hundred pounds) (whatever may be the maximum penalty recoverable) on summary conviction.
  "Provided that a master or owner shall not be liable to any penalty under this section—

  "(1) In respect of any wood goods which the master has considered it necessary to place or keep on deck during the voyage on account of the springing of any leak, or of any other damage to the ship received or apprehended; or

  "(2) If he proves that the ship sailed from the port at which the wood goods were loaded as deck cargo at such time before the last day of October as allowed a sufficient interval according to the ordinary duration of the voyage for the ship to arrive before that day at the said port in the United Kingdom, but was prevented from so arriving by stress of weather, or circumstances beyond his control. Provided further, that nothing in this section shall affect any foreign ship coming into any port of the United Kingdom under stress of weather, or for repairs, or for any other purpose than the delivery of her cargo."

  LORD CARLINGFORD: expressed his approval of the new clause, as under it Norway and Sweden would not be placed

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  at a disadvantage when compared with other countries.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that the Government had felt the force of the observations made by the noble Lord on the second reading on this subject, and in consequence of what was then suggested they had re-considered the whole matter and had brought up the clause which was now proposed to be inserted in the Bill. Should anything more be thought necessary it could be considered on the Report. He would take that opportunity of pointing out to the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Somerset) that by the 23rd section of the 36 & 37 Vict. c. 85 the carrying on board any ship of any of the dangerous goods—gunpowder and other things—specified, would make the parties liable to a fine of £100 for each offence.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 22 to 24, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 25 (Application to foreign ships of provisions as to detention).
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, this clause had become unnecessary, its enactments having been embodied in Clause 13.
  Clause struck out.
  Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday next; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 160.)
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.