Lords Sitting of 11 August 1876

MINUTES.
Public Bills—First Reading—Bow Street Police Court Site* (228); Expiring Laws Continuance* (229); Sheriff Courts (Scotland)* (222); Consolidated Fund (Appropriation).*
Second Reading—Companies Acts (1862 and 1867) Amendment (218); Legal Practitioners* (220); Suez Canal (Shares)* (221); War Department and Post Office (Remuneration, &c.)* (219).
Committee—Report—Municipal Privileges (Ireland)* (211); Police (Expenses) Act Continuance* (212); Tramways (Ireland) Acts Amendment (Dublin)* (213).
Report—Elementary Education* (226); Pollution of Rivers* (227).
Royal Assent—Nullum Tempus (Ireland) [39 &40 Vict. c. 37]; Turnpike Acts Continuance [39 &40 Vict. c. 39]; Orphan and Deserted Children (Ireland) [39 &40 Vict. c. 38]; Medical Practitioners [39 &40 Vict. c. 40]; Industrial and Provident Societies [39 &40 Vict. c. 45]; Medical Act (Qualifications) [39 &40 Vict. c. 41]; Slave Trade [39 &

40 Vict. c. 46
; Legal Practitioners (Ireland) [39 &40 Vict. c. 44]; Convict Prisons (Returns) [39 &40 Vict. c. 42]; Isle of Man (Officers) [39 &40 Vict. c. 43]; Saint Vincent, Tobago, and Grenada Constitution [39 &40 Vict. c. 47]; Burghs (Scotland) Gas Supply [39 &40 Vict. c. 49]; Bankers Books Evidence [39 &40 Vict. c. 48]; Commons [39 &40 Vict. c. 56]; Poor Law Rating (Ireland) [39 &40 Vict. c. 50]; Savings Banks (Barrister) [39 &40 Vict. c. 52]; Superannuation (Unhealthy Climates) [39 &40 Vict. c. 53]; Bishopric of Truro [39 &40 Vict. c. 54]; Parochial Records [39 &40 Vict. c. 58]; Winter Assizes [39 &40 Vict. c. 57]; Cattle Disease (Ireland) [39 &40 Vict. c. 51]; Appellate Jurisdiction [39 &40 Vict. c. 59]; Metropolitan Board of Works (Loans) [39 &40 Vict. c. 55]; Tralee Savings Bank [39 &40 Vict. c. cciv]; Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Cardiff) [39 &40 Vict. c. cxcvii]; Metropolis (Whitechapel and Limehouse) Improvement Scheme Confirmation [39 &40 Vict. c. cc]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Bingley, &c.) [39 &40 Vict. c. cxcviii]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Chelmsford, &c.) [39 &40 Vict. c. cxcix]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Bath, &c.) [39 &40 Vict. c. cci]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Birmingham, &c.) [39 &40 Vict. c. ccii]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Bilbrough, &c.) [39 &40 Vict. c. cciii].
TURKEY—STATE OF BULGARIA.

  QUESTION.
  EARL GRANVTLLEasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he could give an assurance to the House that when any further information with regard to the state of Bulgaria was received, measures would be taken to circulate it among the Members of their Lordships' House?
  THE EARL OF DERBY,in reply, said, it was his intention to act in accordance with the suggestion of the noble Earl. Some Papers on the subject had been already laid on the Table, which he would remind the noble Earl came up to a very recent period.

MERCANTILE MARINE—"FRANCONIA" AND "STRATHCLYDE" COLLISION.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  Earl GRANVILLE,in moving for the Report of Mr. Rothery, Registrar of the High Court of Admiralty, on the conduct of the officers of the "Palmerston" after the collision of the "Fran-
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  conia" and the "Strathclyde," said, he did not anticipate any opposition to the Motion. It was on a matter which, attracted much public attention, and concerning which Questions were asked in Parliament. A charge was brought against those in charge of the tug Palmerston, belonging to the Dover Harbour Board, after the loss of the Strathclyde, that they had not done their utmost to save the lives of the survivors—a charge especially supported by the evidence of some Deal boatmen, who had themselves been eminently successful in their exertions. The Harbour Board, immediately after the sad accident, made some preliminary inquiries. For a considerable time it was probable that there would be an inquiry into the whole case by the Board of Trade, and the Harbour Board memorialized the Board of Trade to include the conduct of those in charge of the tug Palmerston in the inquiry. But other legal proceedings making any inquiry by the Board of Trade unnecessary, the Harbour Board determined to have a separate inquiry. They had doubts about the inquiry being usefully conducted by themselves. No member of the Board possessed the necessary legal and nautical experience and they were open to suspicion of local bias. In these circumstances they applied to Mr. Rothery, the learned Registrar of the High Court of Admiralty, and to two nautical Assessors recommended by the Board of Trade. Mr. Rothery had presented to them a clear and full Report, detailing all the circumstances of the case, and the proceedings by the Court of Inquiry. This Report they had officially transmitted to the Board of Trade. Mr. Rothery, with the full concurrence of the two nautical assessors, acquitted all persons concerned in the management of the Palmerston from all blame for the loss of life on the occasion of the loss of the Strathclyde, and added an explanation why it was natural that the Deal boatmen, who behaved so gallantly and so successfully in this matter, should have entertained at the time the views which they did as to the conduct of those on board the Palmerston; though had they been aware of the real reasons which influenced their conduct, they would have seen how groundless were their suspicions. In conclusion, he would avail himself of that public opportunity to thank Mr. Rothery and the Assessors

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  for the trouble they had taken in the matter, and also to acknowledge the assistance which the Dover Commissioners had received in the matter from the Board of Trade.
  Moved, That there be laid before the House, Report of Mr. Rothery, Registrar of the High Court of Admiralty, on the conduct of the officers of the "Palmerston" after the collision of the "Franconia" and the "Strathelyde."—(Earl Granville.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he had nothing to find fault with in the statement made by his noble Friend, which was perfectly accurate; and he should not oppose the Motion.
  Motion agreed to.

  PARLIAMENTARY AGENCY.

    RESOLUTIONS.
    LORD REDESDALErose to move—
    "That until the House do make further Orders in accordance with the Report of the Select Committee on Parliamentary Agency, agreed to by the House on the 28th July last, the following Rules be observed by the Officers of the House and by all Parliamentary Agents and Solicitors engaged in prosecuting Proceedings in the House of Lords upon any Petition or Bill."
    (Declaration of recognizance.)
    "1. No person shall be allowed to act as a Parliamentary Agent until he shall have subscribed a declaration before one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, engaging to observe and obey the Rules, Regulations, Orders, and Practice of the House of Lords, and also to pay and discharge from time to time, when the same shall be demanded, all fees and charges due and payable upon any Petition or Bill upon which such Agent may appear; and after having subscribed such declaration and entered into a recognizance or bond (if hereafter required) in the penal sum of 500 l. conditioned to observe the said declaration, such person shall be registered in a book to be kept in the Private Bill Office, and shall then be entitled to act as a Parliamentary Agent; provided that upon the said declaration, recognizance, or bond and registry, no fee shall be payable."
    (Form.)
    "2. The declaration before mentioned, and the recognizance and bond, if hereafter required, shall be in such form as the Chairman of Committees may from time to time direct.
    "3. One member of a firm of Parliamentary Agents may subscribe the required declaration on behalf of his firm, but the names of all the partners of such firm shall be registered with such declaration, and notice shall be given from time to time to the Clerks of the Private Bill Office of any addition thereto or change therein.
    "4. No person shall be allowed to be registered as a Parliamentary Agent unless he
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    is actually employed in promoting or opposing some Private Bill or Petition pending in Parliament.
    "5. When any person (not being a Solicitor or Writer to the Signet) applies to qualify himself for the first time to act as a Parliamentary Agent, he shall produce to one of the Clerks of the Private Bill Office a certificate of his respectability from a Member of Parliament, or a Justice of the Peace, or a Barrister-at-Law, or an Attorney or Solicitor."
    (Appearance to be entered upon Bills.)
    "6. No notice shall be received in the Private Bill Office for any proceeding upon a Petition or Bill until an Appearance to act as the Parliamentary Agent upon the same shall have been entered in the Private Bill Office, in which Appearance shall also be specified the name of the Solicitor (if any) for such Petition or Bill."
    (Appearance to be entered on Petitions against Bills.)
    "7. Before any party shall be allowed to appear or be heard upon any Petition against a Bill, an Appearance to act as the Parliamentary Agent upon the same shall be entered in the Private Bill Office, in which Appearance shall also be specified the name of the Solicitor and of the Counsel who appear in support of any such Petition (if any Counsel or Solicitor are then engaged), and a certificate of such Appearance shall be delivered to the Parliamentary Agent to be produced to the Committee Clerk."
    (A fresh Appearance on change of Parliamentary Agent.)
    "8. In case the Parliamentary Agent for any Petition or Bill shall be displaced by the Solicitor thereof, or such Parliamentary Agent shall decline to act, the responsibility of such Agent shall cease upon a notice being given in the Private Bill Office, and a fresh Appearance shall be entered upon such Petition or Bill."
    (Agents personally responsible.)
    "9. Every Parliamentary Agent and Solicitor conducting Proceedings in Parliament before the House of Lords shall be personally responsible to the House and to the Chairman of Committees for the observance of the Rules, Orders, and Practice of Parliament, as well as of any Rules which may from time to time be prescribed by the Chairman of Committees, and also for the payment of the fees and charges due and payable under the Standing Orders."
    (Chairman of Committees may, on misconduct, prohibit Agent from practising.)
    "10. Any Parliamentary Agent who shall wilfully act in violation of the Rules and Practice of Parliament, or of any Rules to be prescribed by the Chairman of Committees, or who shall wilfully misconduct himself in prosecuting any Proceedings before Parliament, shall be liable to an absolute or temporary prohibition to practise as a Parliamentary Agent at the pleasure of the Chairman of Committees; provided that upon the application of such Parliamentary Agent the Chairman of Committees shall state in writing the grounds for such prohibition.

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    "11. No person who has been suspended or prohibited from practising as a Parliamentary Agent, or struck off the Roll of Solicitors, or disbarred by any of the Inns of Court, shall be allowed to be registered as a Parliamentary Agent without the express authority of the Chairman of Committees.
    "12. No written or printed statement relating to any Private Bill shall he circulated within the precincts of the House of Lords without the name of a Parliamentary Agent attached to it, who will be held responsible for its accuracy.
    "13 The sanction of the Chairman of Committees in writing is required to every Notice of a Motion prepared by a Parliamentary Agent for dispensing with any Sessional or Standing Order of the House."

    FORM OF DECLARATION.
    "WE, the undersigned, do hereby declare, That we respectively intend during the present Session of Parliament to practise as Parliamentary Agents in the prosecuting, promoting, and opposing Private Bills in the House of Lords, and we severally and respectively do hereby engage to observe, submit to, perform, and abide by all and every the Orders, Rules, Regulations, and Practice of the said House, now in force or hereafter from time to time to be made in relation thereto, and also to pay and discharge from time to time when the same shall be demanded all fees, charges, and sums of money due and payable in respect of any Petition, Bill, or other proceeding or matter in or upon which we shall severally and respectively appear as such Agents as aforesaid."

    DATE.

    NAME.

    RESIDENCE and House of BUSINESS.

    WITNESS.

    These Rules had long been adopted by the other House of Parliament, though their Lordships had never before had any Orders on this subject, and it would be well to adopt the same Rules, so that both Houses might stand on the same footing until some further regulations were made in accordance with the Report of the Select Committee. Solicitors throughout the country seemed to wish it to be understood that anybody might undertake the duty of conducting a Private Bill through Parliament. Now, that was the greatest possible mistake. The special knowledge and training of a solicitor afforded very little guide in the work of a Parliamentary Agent. It was
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    necessary that a man should have studied and should be accustomed to that work. Up to 1837 the duties of Parliamentary Agents were performed exclusively by the clerks of both Houses. During the railway mania the private business of Parliament increased so much that it became impossible very largely to leave it to the clerks, who accordingly received the option of remaining as clerks or of taking the separate office as Parliamentary Agents. Many of them accepted this office and most efficiently had they performed their duties. Not one of these gentlemen was a solicitor, and but for the special knowledge they possessed, it was impossible that the enormous private business could have been properly got through. He wished it to be understood that Parliament had no object in wishing to limit the number of Parliamentary Agents, or to restrict admission to the Roll, except the object of facilitating the work which came before Parliament, and especially of benefiting the suitors. There was no greater mistake in Parliamentary business than to entrust it to inexperienced agents. The expense to suitors was thereby enormously increased, while the trouble to both Houses was also increased, and the duty was in every way inefficiently performed. Only those who were accustomed to Parliamentary business could express a trustworthy opinion on this point; and though he did not like to claim any knowledge which was not shared by other persons, he thought that a quarter of a century's experience entitled him to express the opinion that, for the sake of suitors in Parliament, it was of the greatest possible importance that Parliament should, if they could, create a body of competent persons to transact the private business, leaving it open to others to come in if they qualified themselves for the work. He did not like to see the belief spread that the proposals of the joint Committee on this subject were hard and objectionable. There was no wish to propose hard rules. The object was that suitors in Parliament might know to whom they could properly entrust their work, and he hoped that next Session both Houses would come to some Resolution which would put the matter upon a proper footing.
    Question put thereupon? Resolved in the Affirmative, and Ordered accordingly.

    PARLIAMENTARY AGENCY.
    Moved that the Chairman of Committees be authorised to enforce all the rules and orders of the House in relation to the conduct of the private business of the House and to the agents and solicitors engaged in prosecuting the same during any prorogation of Parliament.—(The Lord President.)
    On question, agreed to.

    PRIVATE BILLS.
    Standing Orders 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 19, 23, 26, 33, 34, 36, 38 a, 43, 56, 58, 60, 62, 66, 67, 89, 104, 122, 123, 127, 133, 138, and 139 considered, and amended; and to be printed as Aamended.—(The Chairman of Committees.) (No. 232.)
  COMPANIES ACTS (1862 AND 1867) AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 218.)
  (The Earl Fortescue.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  EARL FORTESCUE,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, its object was to amend certain provisions of the Companies Acts of 1862 and 1867, and to alter the law relating to the issuing of the prospectuses of new companies and the publication of balance-sheets and profit and loss statements by companies already established. It was very earnestly desired by the mercantile community, and had received the approval of 160 associated Chambers of Commerce. It provided—first, that prospectuses were not to be issued before a copy signed by the directors had been sent to the registrar, and amongst other provisions a list of allottees was to be sent to each allottee within seven days after the making of an allotment. Companies were also to prepare a report of their proceedings, with the names of the directors and officials, and a balance-sheet annually of profit or loss, to be sent to the address of every registered member of the company seven days before every ordinary meeting of the company, or to deposit it at the company's office. The Bill also provided compulsory powers for carrying out the latter.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl Fortescue.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORobjected to the second reading of the Bill on the
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  ground that the Companies Acts mentioned formed a code of elaborate and important laws which had been framed by the Government of the day after the greatest care and deliberation, and had been the subject of various judicial decisions. It might be very necessary that the provisions of those Acts should be considered and expanded, but then that ought to be done only after due deliberation, because a stone could not be touched without running the risk of pulling down more than it was desirable to disturb. He was sorry to appear as an opponent of the Bill; but, having considered it carefully, he thought it very undesirable that a Bill of that nature should pass at the very end of the Session, when it could not possibly be considered. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Fortescue) said it was ardently desired by the mercantile community; but what opportunity had the mercantile community had of considering its provisions? Some of them were of a most stringent character, and would have such an operation that business could not be conducted at all under them. Many companies were merely private trading companies, and what right had Parliament to assume to regulate the manner in which they should conduct their affairs? He did not underrate the possible importance of the Bill, but it ought not to be passed at the end of the Session, when it could not be considered by those whom it would affect in a very considerable degree.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was informed that the Bill was one which had the support of the President of the Board of Trade in the other House of Parliament, while the Attorney General had spoken in its favour.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORemarked that he had had no communication with the Attorney General on the subject, and he must, therefore, demur to having his authority in support of the Bill quoted on grounds which were not sufficiently well authenticated.
  EARL GRANVILLEregretted that there had been no communication between the noble and learned Lord and his hon. and learned Colleague in the other House on the subject, for he looked upon such communications as very useful. He was informed that the Attorney General had stated that the object of the Bill was one which he regarded as

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  beneficial, and he understood that the Secretary of State for the Home Department had gone still further, by observing that the Government withdrew all opposition to the Bill on the ground that the ruin of so many persons might be involved in its not passing.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYthought the course pursued by the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) in quoting the opinions of Members of the other House on the authority of the reports of what had occurred there was one which was calculated to lead to great inconvenience, for the true elements for forming an opinion on the subject were wanting, unless there were some official and authoritative records of the debates on which to rely. Many strange things passed in the House of Commons after 12 o'clock at night, and it was impossible from the concise, not to say the slipshod, reports of what took place after that hour to know what they were, but it was quite patent that, it was impossible at this time of the Session for their Lordships to discuss the Bill.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR,while not denying that the whole object and scope of the Bill were most praiseworthy, would not persevere in his objection to it provided the noble Lord in charge of it would agree not to press it beyond the second reading.
  EARL GRANVILLEhoped his noble Friend (Earl Fortescue) would be allowed to postpone his Motion until the Government had been able to confer with their Colleagues in the other House as to what took place there on the occasion referred to.
  EARL FORTESCUEhoped the measure, if it was not passed now, would be taken up next Session by the Government.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, it would not be fair to the House and the public that the Bill should be entertained at the very close of the Session. It had been for a long time before the House of Commons, and was not sent up till this late period; and he would remind their Lordships that to-morrow almost all the Ministers had to attend a Privy Council.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he was not prepared to deny the importance of the Bill, but there was not time to give it that consideration which the subject deserved. If the noble Lord opposite (Earl Fortes-
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  cue) was satisfied with having the Bill read a second time, in order to affirm that the subject required the attention of Parliament, he would assent to that; but unless an assurance was given that the Bill would not be pressed on to future stages, he thought it would be better to negative the Bill.
  EARL FORTESCUEassented to the proposal of the noble Duke.
  On Question? Resolved in the Affirmative; Bill read 2a accordingly.
  House adjourned at half past Eleven o'clock, till To-morrow,
  One o'clock.