Lords Sitting of 28 June 1875

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Second Report—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. (No. 176.)
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Public Health (136); Registration of Trade Marks* (167); Public Records (Ireland) Act, 1867, Amendment* (168).
Third Reading—Endowed Schools Act (1868) Continuance (109); Juries (Ireland) * (166); Metropolis Management Acts Amendment * (145); Survey (Great Britain) Acts Continuance* (128); Intestates Widows and Children (Scotland)* (143), and passed.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS ACT (1868) CONTINUANCE BILL.—(No. 109.)

  THIRD READING.
  (The Lord President.)
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Lord President.)
  EARL FORTESCUE: I hope the deep interest which I have for many years taken in middle-class education, and in school endowments as most influentially affecting it, may plead with your Lordships for your kind indulgence to me during the few remarks I propose making upon the working of the Endowed Schools Act up to this time. My noble Friend the then President of the Council may perhaps remember that some 11 or 12 years ago I was honoured by being made the channel for communicating to him the earnest hope, expressed by several friends of education, including Members of both Houses of Parliament, who met at my house, that a Royal Commission might be appointed to inquire into the educational endowments throughout the country. We were not long after deeply gratified by the announcement of the appointment of such a Commission, and still more by its admirable composition. For we learnt that it was to be presided over by my lamented Friend (Lord Taunton), one of the noblest, most patriotic, single-minded, and enlightened public men I ever had the happiness of knowing, and it was to comprise several other statesmen since distinguished in the service of the Crown, as well as other men conspicuous for their acquaintance with educational questions. Nor was the

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  Report which presented three years afterwards, in December 1867, unworthy of the expectations raised by the high character of the Commissioners. Founded upon a long, careful, and, I may truly say, exhaustive inquiry into the endowed schools and school endowments of the country, it was most able, elaborate, and statesmanlike, both in its description of their actual state and in its recommendations for the future.
  Perhaps you will allow me to remind you of the general outline of the comprehensive scheme proposed in it. After proving a general prevalence, even beyond what had been suspected, of abuse, misuse, and disuse with regard to these endowments, and revealing an unexpected amount of difference both as to their number and value between one part of the country and another; after demonstrating that unless endowed schools are compelled to do good work, they will often do positive mischief by standing in the way of better institutions; and after showing how the Charity Commissioners, ably and efficiently as they had generally done their work within the limited scope of their powers, had been estopped by the nature of their duties from considering the educational endowments of any district in relation to each other, or, indeed, from dealing with any case otherwise than isolatedly and separately on its own merits alone; they proceed to state their reasons for the conclusions which they had arrived at—namely, that the schools ought to be remodelled on a system; that in order to effect this in the best way they ought to be dealt with in groups, and that it would be necessary to sub-divide the country for this purpose; that counties would make the best ultimate divisions, but that for the present the Registrar General's eleven larger divisions ought to be taken; and that within each division the schools should be assigned to the three grades, into which they proposed that all schools below the great public schools and above the elementary schools should be divided. And then they go on to say—
  "Some Provincial Authority suck as we shall hereafter suggest should he charged with the duty"—which cannot be entrusted to the governors of the schools themselves—"of determining in what grade each school is to stand."
  And the Provincial Authority is to do this "by fixing absolutely the age at which boys are to leave," and "by lay-
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  ing down certain limits" as to "the fees to be paid and the subjects to be taught," so as to check schools from practically rising or falling out of their assigned grade. With regard to religious instruction, they report that it might be left to some Provincial Authority to choose in certain cases between two specified forms of rules on the subject. Whether a school is to have boarders or not is, they say, "a matter to be settled by some Provincial Authority." They state that—
  "After Parliament has laid down the general principle, the precise regulations with respect to the master's remuneration may well he left to the local authorities."
  Again, they say that—
  "To change the conditions on which exhibitions are at present held recourse should be had to the Provincial Authority."
  "The same authority should also be empowered to sanction" various other changes with regard especially to exhibitions, where
  "the various circumstances of the various endowments would have to be considered, and this a Provincial Authority would he well able to do."
  As to the question whether schools in certain cases should be kept as boarding schools, or converted into day schools, they say—
  "The proper authority to decide would be a Provincial Authority, capable of thoroughly understanding and appreciating local claims, and yet not hampered by the tendency to consider them alone."
  And they conclude their long and care-fully-reasoned out description of the duties and powers of the proposed Provincial Authority thus—
  "The Provincial Authority would be, in our opinion, the proper body to draw up new schemes for the regulation of schools within its province, and submit them through the Charity Commissioners, or some Central Authority, to Parliament."
  I think it is not too much, therefore, to say with the first Commissioners under the Endowed Schools Act, that "the system of the Report" of the Schools Inquiry Commissioners "mainly rests" upon the establishment of Provincial Authorities, subject on some points—and on some points only—to the control of the Central Authority above them, which the Report recommends to be established; but with the head masters and School Governors within their respective

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  provinces subjected to them on many more points: an appeal being reserved in certain cases only to the supreme Central Authority.
  The late Government, in their Bill of 1869 (brought in, be it remembered, in the same Session with several other important measures, which had precedence over it), took only two parts, and kept only one part, of the comprehensive scheme of the Commission of Inquiry—namely, the appointment of a Commission with very large powers for dealing with the educational endowments of the country. For they left out altogether the most important part, in my opinion—the constitution of Provincial Authorities; and they early dropped that of the Central Educational Council. But as in the Preamble of the Bill, which was introduced by one of the Commissioners who had signed the Report, they had implied the intention to carry out the scheme contained in that Report; and as the then advanced period of the Session forbade all chance of carrying more than a short Bill before the Recess, we many of us fondly hoped and believed that the Act of 1869 was only the first instalment of early, systematic, and complete legislation on the subject. Very probably they really meant do so; and Mr. Forster's character for straightforwardness strengthens that impression. But be that as it may, the fact remains that from that day to this neither the late nor the present Government have taken any step towards completing the work on the lines recommended by the Inquiry Commissioners.
  I have at various times since, and even during, the passing of the Endowed Schools Act, endeavoured to impress upon this House and successive Governments the great importance of carrying out as a whole, and not merely partially and piecemeal, that comprehensive scheme. And I ventured to predict the failure of any other mode of dealing with a problem at once so large, so complicated, and so delicate—so large; because it concerns at least £20,000,000 of property in money and land, and its application to the efficient promotion of education, and especially of middle-class education: so complicated; for it concerns trusts and emoluments of almost infinite variety in date, in character, and in circumstances: and so delicate; for it concerns multitudinous administrative
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  bodies, scattered haphazard over the country, with very strong, though diverse, personal, family, and local, vested interests. I have no intention of reopening the somewhat warm debates of the last two or three Sessions with regard to the composition or operations of the Commission appointed by the late Government under the Act of 1869. They laboured hard and conscientiously. But they were called upon to do work, which the Commission of Inquiry had declared could not be satisfactorily or efficiently discharged by any central authority alone: for that Commission said—
  "The necessity of dealing with schools in groups seems plainly to imply the corresponding necessity of local Provincial Boards to deal with them."
  And this I will venture to add, without fear of contradiction; that the first Commissioners under the Endowed Schools Act went beyond the expectations held out by the authors of that Act. For they soon began to startle this House and the country with the sweeping character of their earlier schemes; and it was only after receiving several rude checks from this House that they, with avowed reluctance, entered upon quite an opposite course; and disappointed me, amongst many others, by the hesitating, desultory, and unsystematic character of their later proposals. Indeed, in their Report of 1872, they allow that they had tried to deal with schools in groups, but had practically found it too difficult to do so. They, therefore, determined to give up all idea of carrying on their operations in that way, and thenceforth to treat each case, as if it were an isolated one, separately on its own merits. The consequence has been that they perpetuated in several cases by improved organization, and practically originated in a few cases by resuscitation, in different parts of the country, exactly the unsystematic and unsatisfactory state of things with regard to endowed schools, which the Report so forcibly deprecates; multiplying, to please the trustees, first-grade schools, where there were already enough, and leaving large tracts of country utterly deficient in schools of the grade required there.
  Will their successors do better? Their names, when announced in Parliament, justly commanded public confidence.

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  Sir James Hill was well known for his able and judicious work at the Charity Commission, within the limited scope of its powers. Mr. Longley had done good service as Poor Law Inspector, and had gained the confidence of every district successively placed under his charge. My noble Friend Lord Clinton was also favourably known both for his official work at the India Board and for his usefulness in his own county. They may, and I hope will, profit by the exposure of some of the errors of their predecessors. But I boldly say they cannot do well. For, like them, they have work given them to do which, in the words of the Schools Inquiry Commissioners—
  "cannot really be dealt with by a central authority alone; but requires the co-operation of a local body, which, as a matter of course, must be capable of looking at the comity, or, perhaps, several counties, as a whole; but which shall know the district well, and not act, in mere dependence, on the reports of its officers."
  And now what is the present position of the question? I have ascertained that only a third at most of the vast property yielding more than £600,000 a-year, comprehended under the head of educational endowments alone (to say nothing of others) subject to the Act of 1869, has yet been disposed of; either quite irrevocably by schemes already legally in force, or else by schemes in such a stage as no longer fairly to admit of being now interfered with. And though, no doubt, some endowments might have been very much better applied, if the comprehensive scheme for dealing with schools ingroups had been followed, I think I may safely say no great harm has yet been done: and we are still in time. But every month makes a difference, by disposing for ever of more and more of the magnificent property available three years since for the systematic spread of Secondary Education. I say disposing of finally and for ever: because, under the new scheme, schools will no longer be so disgracefully robbed or perverted as to afford just ground for public indignation, or to enlist public opinion in favour of their being otherwise dealt with. They will be far less assailable hereafter in their respectable misapplication than hitherto in their scandalous abuse. We are still in time: but only just in time. And I would earnestly entreat Her Majesty's Government to seize the golden opportunity before it is too late. If I am asked how this could now be done with-
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  out legislation for the purpose impossible at this period of the Session; I would answer from the experience of a voluntary committee of some 30 or 40 in my own County, comprising most of the chief landowners and the Bishop, with a certain number of clergymen, yeomen, and tenant-farmers as representatives of the more important educational endowments, which met to propose a scheme for the whole County to be submitted to the Endowed Schools Commissioners. I was much surprised and gratified at the diligent attendance at our meetings, and at the amount of response soon given to appeals for a spirit of sacrifice of petty local interests to the general good of the County. I would venture to suggest, without pretending to speak of their legal powers for the purpose, that the Government with the aid of the Lords Lieutenant, could easily name Educational Councils, fairly representative in their character, either for their several counties, or for registration districts comprising two or more counties, as recommended by the Inquiry Commissioners; and could assign to these local Councils instead of to the Central Commissioners, the duty of considering schemes after conference on the spot with the trustees of the different school endowments to be dealt with in those counties or districts, previous to the final determination of the Commissioners and of Parliament. And I feel confident from our Devonshire experience that some such Councils would act very usefully and greatly smooth difficulties. I myself should prefer a County basis for dealing with these, as with various other local matters; "because," in the words of the Inquiry Commissioners "each county is a whole by itself, and has a political and social life of its own." But the question of the best division is, for the present, unimportant. What is vitally important is to commence action before it is too late. Before concluding, I must again earnestly appeal to the Government to interpose at once and determine that the remaining two-thirds of the vast property left by the munificence of our ancestors for educational purposes shall be wisely and systematically distributed so as to assist to the utmost in providing throughout the country sound and economical secondary education for generations yet unborn. Let it not be within the next few years all irrevocably

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  disposed of—squandered, in fact, not corruptly, but wastefully—by a continuance of the same desultory, unsystematic, and unsatisfactory action, which has hitherto unavoidably characterized the course of the Commissioners under the Endowed Schools Act.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDhoped that, in consequence of the great amount of Business on the Paper, the noble Earl would excuse him if he did not follow him in a discussion on the general question of the administration of the endowed schools; and he would now tell. his noble Friend what he did not like to tell him in the course of his speech—that he was out of Order. The Bill before their Lordships did not deal with the general question, but merely carried out a certain arrangement in respect of vested interests. When last year the Government felt obliged to adopt the unpleasant course of doing away with the old Commission and appointing a new one, he stated the reasons which induced them to adopt that course. The new Commission had only been at work six months, and it was impossible to say yet whether its schemes would be satisfactory or not. He hoped, therefore, that his noble Friend would excuse him for not going further into the subject.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
(The Lord President.)
(NO. 136.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that at the outset he wished to divest the minds of their Lordships of a misapprehension with respect to the extent and purpose of the measure. In many quarters the Bill was supposed to be designed as a settlement of the great sanitary questions which had of late been so much discussed; and that it was intended to be a complete and conclnsive measure. Had it been so intended, no doubt the Government would have been fairly open to the criticism that they had not redeemed the pledges they had given at the commencement of the Session that they would
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devote a large portion of their energy to legislation in respect of sanitary matters. But both of these statements were based on erroneous assumptions. The Bill was neither a complete nor a conclusive measure. What it purported to be was neither more nor less than a measure to amend and consolidate the existing sanitary law. The Bill certainly was a large one, for it contained 340 clauses; but, startling as that number of sections might appear at first sight, he thought that a printed Paper which had been circulated among their Lordships must have shown them that the Bill was not as formidable as its bulk might seem to imply. In order to explain what was proposed to be done by the Bill, he must bring under their Lordships' notice the various Acts at present in force on the subject; but he did not think he need go back farther than the year 1848. In that year there was considerable alarm in this country in consequence of the threatened approach of cholera. Mainly actuated by that fear, the Parliament of that day passed the Public Health Act. That Act was chiefly applicable to towns; but it did not come into operation unless a certain number of the ratepayers called for it, and the central authority, the General Board of Health, was of opinion that it ought to be applied. There was no alteration in that state of things till the year 1858, when the powers of the General Board of Health expired, and they were transferred to the Home Secretary. After 1858 there were two other Acts—one in 1861 and the other in 1863. They were amending Acts, into the details of which it was not necessary for him to enter. In 1865 an Act passed entitled the Sewage Utilization Act, the object of which was to enable the local authorities of any district to dispose of sewage so as that it might not become a nuisance, and also apply it to agricultural purposes. It also extended the Health of Towns Act to rural districts. In 1867 there was another Utilization of Sewage Act, which gave further powers to local bodies and enabled them to combine. He might mention that, in 1855, a Sanitary Act dealing with noxious trades was passed, and was amended by the Acts of 1860 and 1863, which were merely amending Acts. He now came to the Act passed in 1866—the Sanitary Act—which was

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an important one, and deserved rather more attention. It amended the Utilization of Sewage Act of 1865, and gave power to sewage authorities and vestries to form themselves into drainage districts and to enter into undertakings for the better supply of water; it amended the Nuisance Removal Act of 1,855, and conferred additional powers in respect of disinfection. A very important provision was that contained in the 49th clause, which gave power to the Home Secretary to execute certain works in default of their being executed by the local authority, and to charge the local authority with the cost. In 1869 and 1870 further Acts were passed relating to sanitary subjects; and at this moment there were not fewer than 15 Acts embodying the provisions to which he had alluded. "With the progress of sanitary legislation and the enlargement of the powers of the authorities to whom the carrying out of that legislation had been entrusted, a certain amount of confusion arose in the reading and the enforcing of the several Acts of Parliament. There were several distinct authorities—namely, the urban authority, the rural authority, and the authority represented by the Boards of Guardians—for dealing with the same matters and sometimes with different powers. In some districts the Boards of Guardians were the authority for the removal of nuisances, and the vestries for sewers and the supply of water. With a view to bringing about a better system his right hon. Friend the present Prime Minister, when before in office, advised the Queen to issue a Royal Commission, and the members of that Commission—a very strong one—were subsequently named by the Government of the Party opposite. At the end of three years the Commission made its Report, in which it stated—
"That it is desirable to make laws concerning public health as simple and uniform as possible, and with a view thereto to repeal as far as may be practicable the existing General Acts, and to mate amended and more extensive provision in respect of the subject-matter by one comprehensive statute."
In 1872 an amending Act was passed which divided the authorities into two classes—the urban authority and the rural authority. In 1874 another amending Act was passed; but the law being still in an unsatisfactory state. Her Majesty's Government thought it their
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duty to bring in this Bill for the purpose of consolidating the various Acts in one Bill. The difficulty of consolidating several Acts was shown by the course pursued in reference to the Navy Discipline Act. The way that was accomplished was this—In 1860 an Act was passed repealing the whole or part of eight Acts, and embodying in one statute the law relating to discipline in the Navy. Then that was repealed and re-enacted with Amendments in 1861. In 1864 the Act of 1861 was repealed and re-enacted with Amendments. In 1866 the process was repeated, and the Act passed in that year formed the code of settled law relating to the discipline in the Navy, and which he believed was found to be satisfactory. The Bill now before their Lordships' House was divided into eleven Parts, but there were only about six of these to which he need call particular attention. Commencing with the third Part, its subject was SANITARY PROVISIONS, and related to the subjects of Sewerage and Drainage, and contained clauses relating to scavenging and cleansing, water supply, cellar-dwellings and lodging-houses, nuisances, offensive trades, unsound meat, infectious diseases and hospitals, the prevention of epidemic diseases, and mortuaries. Part IV., LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONS, related to the subjects of Highways and Streets, and the clauses dealt with the regulation and lighting of streets, new buildings, public pleasure gardens, markets, slaughter-houses, public halls, &c., and police regulations. Part V. contained GENERAL PROVISIONS as to contracts, purchase of land, by-laws, officers, and mode of conducting business by local authorities. Part VI., EATING and BORROWING POWERS, related to expenses of Urban Authority and Urban Bates, expenses of Rural Authority, borrowing powers and audit. Part VII. to LEGAL PROCEEDINGS; and Part VIII. to ALTERATION of AREAS and UNION of DISTRICTS for constituting the sanitary authority. These were the salient points of the Bill. What he wished more particularly to call attention to, however, were the new provisions which had been introduced and which had hitherto not formed part of the legislation of the country. Under these provisions the local authority had the control of sewers as well without as within their district,

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and were empowered to carry water mains beyond their district underground. This power did exist at present in regard to sewage, and it seemed only reasonable that it should exist in regard to water, which was equally necessary to the health of the community. Further, the waterworks clauses were incorporated in the Bill in accordance with the recommendations of the Select Committee. Another clause increased the limit of the cost of the water supply to 2d. per week on houses where it could not be provided at a cheaper rate. Then power was granted to local authorities to suppress trade nuisances; to urban authorities to purchase or provide gasworks by agreement; to sanitary authorities generally to proceed against joint contributors to a nuisance; and to the Local Government Board to unite districts and appoint medical officers of health. The provision as to joint contributors to nuisances was framed because it was sometimes difficult to distinguish who the offending party really was, as his noble Friend (the Marquess of Salisbury) had found in regard to the pollution of rivers. As for the Amendments made in the other House, they did not call for special notice. They were important, no doubt, but it would be better to consider them in Committee. As to the Bill generally, he ventured to suggest to their Lordships the advisability of confining discussion, as far as possible, to the new provisions; because if they travelled over the whole 341 clauses, re-considering the merits of Acts of Parliament which had been passed during the last 30 years, they would be occupied—he would not say uselessly, but certainly for a much longer period than he could hope would be given to the Bill. If the Bill passed into law in its present state it would present no bar to future improvements in sanitary legislation—on the contrary, it would smooth the way. As for the new provisions introduced, they had been found absolutely necessary in order to reconcile the conflicting provisions of the various Acts dealt with. For instance, under the Public Health Act of 1848, in the case of the junction of a drain with the sewer of the local authority, the written consent of the urban authority was necessary; whereas under the Sanitary Act of 1866, which was equally in force, it was not required. In these observa-
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tions he believed he had indicated the full scope of the Bill. He might again say, in conclusion, that he did not bring it forward as a great measure of sanitary reform, but as a measure which, by consolidating, with some not unimportant amendments, the Sanitary Acts of the last 30 years, laid a good foundation for such enactments as might in future be deemed necessary for the promotion and maintenance of public health.
Moved, "That the Bill be now road 2a."—(The Lord President.)
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that this Bill, like a great many others, was a Bill to increase the public burdens on the ratepayers. He thought it was high time the ratepayers should have greater control over the local expenditure of the country, but the effect of the present Bill would be to render such control more difficult to exercise than ever. That was not his own opinion alone; it was the opinion of the Officers of Public Health and of the Poor Law Board also. An indispensable condition of good administration was that they should have administrative areas. Now, the present Bill tended to strengthen the unions by making them great borrowing corporations, and therefore much more difficult to arrange in administrative areas; and, as the counties and the unions were not conterminous, how could a system of county administration be introduced? Until the boundaries of counties and unions were made to harmonize, it was impossible that any effective system of local administration could exist. His own union extended into three counties, and it was obvious that in such a case the ratepayers of the several counties would have great difficulty in controlling local expenditure. If once, he maintained, the union were made the unit, it would be impossible to get back to the county without great difficulty. When, he might add, the noble Duke who had just spoken (the Duke of Richmond) was down at Brighton the other day he made a very eloquent speech, in which he pointed out, with a good deal of truth, that the predecessors of the present Government in office had passed several measures which had the effect of harassing the country considerably. He was afraid, however, that the noble Duke himself and his Colleagues

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were following in the same path. They had, for instance, introduced an Artizans Dwellings Bill, which would interfere with the poor very much, unless it was carried out with great caution. There was besides the Agricultural Holdings Bill, with its "letting value," which seemed to have harassed the country so much that there were representations with regard to it from all quarters—although he had been told that he knew nothing about the matter when he warned the Government that they would hear more on the subject. The Pollution of Rivers Bill was another measure which appeared to have so discomposed the various interests which would be effected by it, that the noble Marquess who had charge of it had ever since the second reading been beset with deputations complaining of its provisions. The Bill under discussion was somewhat of a similar character, and was so full of details that it was impossible to enter into them at any length on that occasion. Inspectors and surveyors were to be appointed under its provisions, who would in all probability be frequently very ignorant people, and yet it would be in the power of one of those inspectors to go to a poor man and say—"You must not have this pigsty," and cause a great deal of trouble by insisting on its removal. It would be necessary to examine these inspectors and surveyors before they were appointed, because the authority with which they would be invested was very great; and it seemed to be forgotten that, in passing Provisional Orders, very important measures were often agreed to—not always with due consideration. For these reasons he was of opinion that whenever the Bill went into Committee, it would be necessary to look very carefully into its provisions.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, it was not unusual to designate some measures which were brought before Parliament—especially at the end of the Session, and which dealt with a great many matters—"omnibus" Bills. Now, that epithet might, he thought, very well be applied to the speech to which the House had just listened;—or perhaps it might, taking into account the nature of the Bill under discussion, be more appropriately termed a consolidated Opposition speech. The noble Duke had referred to a great number of questions—and had mentioned several Bills which
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were connected together in. no other way except by the fact that they were not in the Bill now before their Lordships. The noble Duke had condemned very seriously too the power of borrowing, and the effect which such a power was likely to have on the re-distribution of administrative power; but, then, there was no power of borrowing contained in the Bill. The same remark applied to several other observations of the noble Duke. He was, however, perfectly willing to concede to him that inspectors were not always infallible, and that it was possible they might sometimes take an undue antipathy to an innocent pigsty; but then it should be borne in mind that inspectors were the genuine outcome of our democratic form of Government; and if, as the noble Duke had recommended, there were to be an examination in discretion in their case, he was afraid that if they were to be intrusted with the larger task of governing our counties a still more strict examination would be required. But if, as the noble Duke argued, inspectors were sometimes careless in the exercise of their power, they could at least, it seemed, plead as an excuse the want of attention on the part of Members of Parliament themselves in dealing with that very important class of legislation known as Provisional Orders. He was, however, afraid he should take up too much of the time of the House if he were to defend the various positions which the noble Duke had selected for attack—he thought they would be best met when the Bills to which they referred were brought under the consideration of their Lordships. He ventured, however, to tender a respectful protest against one particular criticism of the noble Duke. He understood his argument to be that this Bill ought not to pass because the Government had not elaborated some grander scheme with which when produced the smaller provisions of the measure might be found to conflict. Now such a course as that, if adopted, would put a stop to any ameliorative legislation; but in the case of such legislation as that under discussion, hampered as it was in the other House of Parliament and oppressed by the weight of public business constantly increasing, while at the same time the opportunities of carrying it out did not increase, to set our face against minute improvements would be

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practically to refuse to make any change for the better at all.
LORD ABERDAREpointed out that the question to be determined was at what period consolidation should take place. It was true the late Government were willing to undertake the task of consolidating the various Acts relating to the public health, but they were of opinion that very important amendments of the law should first be made. The difficulties connected with the matter were found to be immense. It was thought by both sides that it would be better to refer it to a Select Committee; but their Report did not much facilitate the action of the Government. There were parts of the existing law which required amendment in order to strengthen the hands of the Local Government Board in the event of the local authorities failing to do their duty. He intended to place on the Paper an Amendment for that purpose, so that the noble Duke opposite might have an opportunity of considering it.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that nobody could be more conversant than he was with the mischief which had arisen from the multitude of Acts which had been passed on this subject, and from the difficulty of understanding what the law was in relation to it. He would only say a word of caution—they ought not to be content with looking to those parts of the Bill which merely restored the old Acts. There ought to be some control over the execution of works by local bodies. For example, if a reservoir for supplying water were not properly made, there was a danger of its bursting and doing great injury. In cases of that kind there ought to be some control exercised for the sake of the public safety. The powers given by the Bill to take over waterworks and gasworks from companies also required guarding, in order that the shareholders might have sufficient notice of so important a matter as a proposal to part with their interest in such undertakings. On that and other points some amendments might be made in certain provisions of the existing law with great advantage while they were dealing with that subject. As to making unions conterminous with counties it was impracticable, except at an enormous amount of expense and trouble, which would be attended with no commensurate benefit to the public. He regarded that Bill as a very im-
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portant step in the right direction. The repeal of nearly the whole of some 25 Acts was in itself a matter of very great importance, and he trusted that the measure, when amended in some particulars, would be of great advantage to local government throughout the country.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that having frequently complained of the multitude of statutory enactments on that subject, he felt bound in consistency to thank the Government for the very useful measure they had brought in. No one who had not been practically engaged in the work of endeavouring to effect sanitary improvements under the existing law could adequately appreciate the enormous amount of labour, difficulty, and doubt, together with consequent expense, arising from the multiplicity of enactments—sometimes varying and sometimes actually conflicting with each other—which now encumbered the Statute Book in reference to such subjects. Another difficulty of the existing state of things arose from the perplexing manner in which jurisdictions and areas intersected one another.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday the 6th of July next.

ARTILLERY, ENGINEER, AND MILITIA OFFICERS.—QUESTIONS.
LORD WAVENEYasked the Under Secretary of State for War, (1.) Whether it is proposed in the case of officers of the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers to revert to the practice of the Militia service in accordance with Her Majesty's Regulations by which adjutants of the Militia service are required to wear the uniform of their respective corps; (2.) whether any instructions have been issued or whether it is proposed to issue any instructions to officers inspecting Militia brigades or regiments to report upon—1. The recruiting of the regiments inspected as to numbers; 2, the quality of recruits obtained; 3, the physical and military efficiency of the Militia soldiers enrolled in the Militia Re-serve. (3.) whether it is proposed to attach brigades or regiments of Militia to the forces to be employed in the Autumn Manœuvres of this year?
EARL CADOGAN,in answer to the noble Lord's Questions, said, it was not

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proposed to alter the regulations as to the uniform to be worn by Adjutants of Militia regiments. He understood the noble Lord to object that the present distinction was hurtful to the feelings of Militia officers; but, on the other hand, it was considered to be of the utmost importance, with a view to the efficiency of Militia regiments, that candidates for those appointments from the Artillery and Engineers should be as numerous as possible. The inducements at present held out being very small, the applications were in consequence very few; and it was believed if those regulations were cancelled there would be still less inducement to officers of the Artillery and Engineers to apply for those appointments. It that were so, the interests of the Militia would be still more injuriously affected than they could possibly be by the distinction in dress. As to the second Question—whether Inspecting Officers had been instructed to report as to the number and quality of recruits of Militia Regiments—Inspecting Officers had been instructed to ask commanding officers of Militia Regiments how many recruits had been enrolled and approved between the termination of the last drilling and the commencement of the preliminary drill, and how many during the preliminary drill. They had also been directed to inquire as to the age, height, and general quality of recruits, and, further, as to how many men had volunteered to join the Militia reserve, and how many men had been approved. With regard to the physical and military efficiency of these Reserves the Inspecting Officers had reported on their general instructions; but there would be no objection to issuing an Instruction in future, with the view of obtaining the information which the noble Lord desired. It was not proposed to attach brigade or regiments of Militia to the forces to be employed in the Autumn Manœuvres this year.
LORD WAVENEYexpressed his regret at the reply of the noble Earl, and intimated his attention of bringing the matter under the notice of the House on some future occasion.
House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.