Lords Sitting of 25 June 1875

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders Confirmation (Four-towns, &c.) * (170); Ecclesiastical Commissioners (Fen Chapels) * (172); Friendly Societies* (173).
Second Reading—Ecclesiastical Fees Redistribution (161); Juries (Ireland) * (166).
Committee—Report—Metropolis Management Acts Amendment* (145); Survey (Great Britain) Acts Continuance* (128).
Report—Intestates Widows and Children (Scotland) * (143).
Third Reading—Offences against the Person* (158); Gas and Water Orders Confirmation * (70); Glebe Loan (Ireland) * (114); Railway Companies* (111), and passed.

NAVAL CADETS—THE NEW NAVAL COLLEGE.—OBSERVATIONS.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNrose to call attention to the Report of the Committee appointed by the Admiralty to inquire into the system of training Naval Cadets on board H.M.S. Britannia: and to ask, Whether a site has been selected for the new College; and, if so, whether there is any objection to lay on the Table the Report of the Medical Director thereon? It would be in their Lordships' recollection that last Session the subject of the training and studies on board the Britannia had been brought under their notice by a noble and learned Lord (Lord Chelmsford)—who, he regretted, was prevented by indisposition from being in his place that evening—in a very interesting speech. Though he did not go to the full length of the noble and learned Lord's position on that occasion when he said that several of the papers were not only too difficult for boys of the age of those who were candidates for naval cadetships, but would be found too difficult for very many of their Lordships, himself included, he did concur with the noble and learned Lord in thinking that some of those questions were not of the sort which boys of that age should

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  be expected to answer. On the occasion to which he was referring his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Malmesbury), answering on behalf of the Government, announced that it was the intention of his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty to appoint a Committee to inquire into the effects of the system pursued on the mental and physical condition of the boys admitted as naval cadets. Since that time the Committee had been appointed, had taken evidence, and had made its Report. Most of their Lordships had, no doubt, read that Report, and they would have perceived that as regarded the physical appearance of the young cadets the evidence given to the Committee did not bear out the figures furnished to the noble and learned Lord (Lord Chelmsford), and quoted by him in their Lordships' House. They reported that the cadets on board the Britannia were quite up to the average height, and were over the average weight of lads of the same age in the Public Schools; that their rate of growth was, if anything, in excess of the normal standard; they admitted that some of the cadets had a jaded appearance; but in no way did the physical condition of the cadets seem so unsatisfactory as had been represented in the figures quoted by the noble and learned Lord. It further appeared from the Report that as regarded the examinations, from the method adopted in the training of the boys, and the close connection between the questions and the course of study in the previous term, they were less severe than might be supposed by those who did not know that the questions were on subjects which the cadets had been recently engaged in studying. The Committee further reported that failures in passing were exceedingly rare; that a fair proportion of the boys obtained first-class certificates, and that the hours of study were by no means excessive; but they were, at the same time, of opinion that the boys were overtaxed by the number of subjects in which they were required to prepare themselves, and recommended the omission of a certain number of those subjects from the course. He was afraid that in its selection of these subjects the Committee had not acted very judiciously. Physics was one of them, and he thought it would be unfortunate
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  if naval cadets did not receive instruction as to the steam-engine. It therefore appeared that, though the system of instruction pursued on board the Britannia required to be amended in some particulars, it had in operation been, on the whole, satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, in moving the Navy Estimates for the present year, had announced the intention of the Government to substitute for the Britannia training ship a college on shore; he wished to know from his noble Friend whether a site had been selected for the new College? It was stated that Dartmouth was the place selected. Now, the climate of the South of England was relaxing; and he thought such a climate was not well suited for growing boys. Would there be any objection to lay upon the Table the Report of the Medical Director General on the site? Three years ago Mr. Goschen had it in contemplation to establish a Naval College, and a site was offered, which he rejected on account of the humidity and dampness of the climate. Great attention should be paid to the question of climate in the selection of a site, and most naval officers insisted that it should be in the vicinity of a great harbour. As to the system of competition which had been established by Mr. Childers, and which was only a competition between two boys for each vacancy, much had been said in condemnation of that system; but he did not think that the evidence taken before the Committee bore out the conclusion arrived at by the Committee with respect to the system. Of what might be called the military branch of the Navy, two witnesses were in favour of it, two were strongly against it, one was completely neutral, and the remaining one might be described as neutral. Of the several civilians of importance who were examined only one was against it. Taking the Blue Book from beginning to end he could not find any evidence to justify the conclusion arrived at by the Committee. In consequence of that conclusion the Government were abolishing competition and resorting to a test examination. Strong evidence was adduced before the Committee to show that "cramming" had existed long before the adoption of the competitive system into the Navy, and that there was no

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  reason to believe that the number of cramming schools bad been increased by it. Was cramming a necessity of the competitive system? He did not believe it. Cramming arose from the fear of parents that their sons would not pass, and it would be resorted to, whether the examinations were competitive or test examinations. Some of the best examinations had been passed by boys who had come up to the examination straight from school. Cases had come within his own knowledge in which persons had hesitated to allow their boys to go up because they had not been crammed; but on his advice they had allowed them to go up, and the boys passed. He ventured to think that a test examination would encourage cramming more than did the limited competitive system which had hitherto been in operation. As long as there was competition, however limited, there was uncertainty as to the standard which the candidate must reach; but once have your test examination and the crammer knew the exact standard up to which he must cram his pupil. In this country we had only recently established a new system of education for the Navy; we had at the head of it a College which was universally admitted to be successful, and we had placed the entrance examination under the President of the College. He believed that, so far as the evidence taken by the Committee could be regarded as proof, the complaints urged against competition had broken down, and yet, on the occasion of the last examinations that had been held, that successful system was departed from and a test system set up in its stead. He was not in favour of competitive examination from any abstract feeling. He could not, however, but notice the tendency that was at present showing itself to abolish competitive examination in every Department of the public service. He could not avoid calling attention to this subject and protesting against the step taken by the Admiralty as a retrograde one which had been taken without sufficient reason, and which he held to be prejudicial to the best interests of the Naval Service.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that this was not a party subject, and he gave credit to the predecessors of the present Government for having done a great deal of good in reference to the training of cadets for the Naval Service.
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  With respect to the first Question of his noble Friend—whether the Government had chosen the site for the new College, and whether they were willing to lay on the Table the Report of the Medical Director in reference to such site—he had to say that the Report of the Medical Director was not ready for presentation to the House. With respect to the site of the proposed Naval College—the late Government, as he understood, had the idea of fixing upon a site at Poole or Branksea Island. Now, he (the Earl of Malmesbury) must express his opinion that there could scarcely be a worse position for the College than Branksea Island. It lay in the middle of a muddy harbour and was as much infested with mosquitoes as any place he ever heard of in his life; and, further, there was not enough water to bring to the island any training-ship that might be required for the use of the cadets, and there were other objections to it. Her Majesty's Government had taken great pains to investigate the matter; and, as a result of their inquiries and examinations, they felt obliged to come to the conclusion that Dartmouth was the best site that could be selected. No doubt there were objections of climate there. In summer the heat of Dartmouth harbour was intense; but the College would be built on the heights; and training-ships would lie in the harbour below. Taking all circumstances into consideration, Dartmouth appeared to be the most convenient spot. The best situation and the most convenient spot would be selected for the site of the College. [The Earl of CAMPERDOWN asked if the site had been absolutely fixed upon?] No; the site had not yet been purchased, but the Report of the Committee appointed by the Admiralty had been printed with all the evidence, and their Lordships would be able to go through it, and they would see that there was quite as much said in favour of the site now selected as there had been against it. His noble Friend had quoted a number of extracts from evidence given before the Committee of Inquiry into the system of training the cadets, his (the Earl of Camperdown's) object being to show that the Committee was wrong in the conclusions at which it had arrived, and that the Government were wrong in deciding to give effect to the recommendations of the Committee. His noble Friend's experience must have

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  taught him that the evidence given before Committees and Commissions was very contradictory. It was easy to divide it into two parts, and to select from it statements to support the particular side which you wished to support. He would undertake to extract from the Blue Book to which his noble Friend had recourse quite as much evidence to support the Report as he had quoted against it. He would go further, and assert that the weight of evidence was against the position for which his noble Friend contended. As to the question of instruction and training of the cadets, a complete scheme of education had been laid down on the recommendations of the Committee which differed from the present system, but in the opinion of the Admiralty was superior. The Committee were of opinion that the boys were overworked, and they recommended that not more than eight papers should be set down for one examination, and that the examination should not last beyond four or five days. At the time the Committee were conducting their inquiry the number of papers was from 10 to 14, and sometimes the examination lasted as long as nine days. They proposed that there should be additional time for recreation after dinner, and that not more than two subjects should be given in the morning and two in the afternoon, and that there should be 10 minutes between each subject. Their Lordships would remember that the examinations were not for men, but for boys, some of whom were only 11½ years old—in fact, the great objection to the studies was that these little boys were required to do too much. Having referred to the number of hours during which the cadets were employed at their studies, the Committee went on to say that at the examinations the boys were overtaxed by the excessive number of subjects and by the system of cramming. His noble Friend had given no definition of what he understood by "cramming." No doubt all their Lordships had been crammed; but what the Committee meant when they spoke of "cramming" was that system by which the candidates for an examination were brought up to the post in the highest condition—crammed with knowledge which they forgot within two or three days after the examination. When the Committee spoke in condemnatory language of
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  competition they did not condemn it as a system—they only condemned its adoption in examinations of boys of the age of those who presented themselves for admission to the Navy. His noble Friend need not apprehend that an elementary knowledge of the steam-engine would be cut out from the subjects. Among the subjects which the Committee recommended in substitution for some which they would have omitted was mythology. He thought this was desirable, seeing that more than one-half the ships in the Navy had mythological names. The Committee recommended that the cadets should remain in the College three years instead of two, and that they should not have to attend school when they went to sea. That was because it was thought that attendance at school lessened the feelings of responsibility which a midshipman ought to possess, and which it was necessary to encourage. During the time the lads were in College they would have the advantage of instruction on board training ships. The subject of competition was an awkward and a touchy one. He observed that if any person said a word against competition in examination he was answered by the remark—"Oh, you are for ignorance." Now, as he had already pointed out, the Committee justified themselves on this head by stating that they were condemning competitive examination only in the case of very young boys. The Committee was composed of members, including Admiral Rice and Captain Graham, who were entitled to their Lordships' confidence, and the evidence taken before it was printed and accessible to all. Those who studied that evidence would, he thought, admit that there could be no doubt on two points—that a College would be found very much superior to a ship, and that the substitution of three for two years was a great improvement. It would, under these circumstances, be acknowledged, he felt satisfied, that the Admiralty had adopted the right course.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he looked upon the subject as a very important one. It appeared that the Government had determined to give up the Britannia, and to have a College on shore; and it seemed they had selected a site at the top of a hill near Dartmouth. As to the substitution of a

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  College for the Britannia, he felt very much disposed to concur in the view taken by the Government; for the fact was that, as matters stood, we should soon not have a ship by which the Britannia could be replaced; and it was desirable that our old ships should be kept for the purpose of store ships in various parts of the world. As to the objection of the new Naval College being situated in Devonshire, he might point out to his noble Friend that Devonshire had produced some of our most renowned seamen and navigators. His noble Friend below him (the Earl of Camperdown) seemed to think that the report of a medical man was required before the site of the proposed College was fixed upon; but he himself was quite satisfied to know that it would be on the top of a hill in Devonshire. He was, at all events, glad to find that the site was not to be at Plymouth or Portsmouth, or any great seaport, to which he thought it would be most objectionable that the boys should be sent. As to the examinations which these boys were required to undergo, he must confess he was of opinion that they were a little too severe, and he arrived at that conclusion, not from his own personal experience, but from the evidence of those by whom the examinations were conducted. The Government, therefore, had, he could not help thinking, done well in appointing a Committee to look into the question, and the Committee had come to a wise conclusion in recommending that the examinations and subjects of study should be reduced. Though he thought the boys had been overworked, still they must receive a good education, the Navy now being a scientific profession, and the officers would have to compete with those of other nations; but as to little boys entering the service by competitive examinations, he believed, as at present conducted, it was of very doubtful good to them or to the country. The examiners wished to bring out their own skill and learning, and what was now wanted was that the examiners themselves should be educated as to the best mode of examining young boys. There was, of course, the advantage in competition that it did away in a great measure with anything like favouritism, and he found it extremely agreeable when at the Admiralty to be saved from endless applications by sending up boys to try
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  what they could do by submitting themselves to examination. A good system of examination ought, at the same time, to be established. He certainly was disposed to agree very much in the expediency of the course which the Government had adopted, both in regard to the site of the College and in respect of the education of the cadets.
  LORD ELPHINSTONEsaid, that the evidence before the Committee showed that many of the witnesses were not in favour of competition. In his own opinion, competitive examination was not so much a test of the boy's ability as of the skill of his tutor or his powers of memory. He thought the Government had done wisely in determining to abolish a test that was utterly fallacious. The Admiralty did not intend to adopt the recommendation of the Committee that a Board should be instituted, consisting of executive and medical officers combined, by whom the fitness of boys to enter the service should be decided. If from any reason, physical, moral, or otherwise, a boy was found unfit to enter the service, he could be sent home to his parents. By that no injury would be done either to the boy or to his parents, because he would have learnt what was a valuable lesson—namely, that he was not fitted for the line of life which he had first struck out for himself, and he could, therefore, at his early age, easily turn his mind to some more suitable occupations for which the education he had previously received would prove of value. As to the site at Dartmouth, the Report showed that the boys there were, in respect to growth, height, and weight, rather in excess than otherwise of those of any public school in the country; and he therefore came to the conclusion that the selection was judicious.
  THE EARL OF LUDERDALEthought that naval men were obliged to the noble Earl who had brought that question forward, although they might not agree with him on all points. His own opinion always had been that the proper place in which to bring up boys for the sea was on board of a man-of-war, in a roomy ship, such as they now had at Dartmouth. They need not be kept on board the training ships—they might be allowed plenty of recreation on shore. As to putting them into a College, he differed from the noble Duke on that point. If there was to be a Naval College he

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  thought it should be erected at one of the great naval forts or arsenals, where the boys would every day see something of what would be their future life. It should not be forgotten that Portsmouth was not now what it was 50 years ago—a bad place. There was no reason why boys placed there should learn what it was best not to know. If a College was wanted, why not send the boys to Greenwich, where there was a College already, and a building big enough to hold them and the officers also?
  LORD HAMPTONsaid, he quite agreed in thinking that their Lordships were much indebted to the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) for bringing the subject under their notice; but he was not able to agree with his noble Friend in the views which he had expressed, as he felt great satisfaction at the course which the present Board of Admiralty had adopted in reference to the competitive examinations of these boys. There was a great difference of opinion in relation to this subject, and he was sincerely glad that the Government had decided that in regard to these boys such examinations should not take place at the early ages mentioned in the Report. When he was at the Admiralty that question of competitive examination was rising in importance and in interest, and it came a good deal under his consideration; and he must say that if there was one point on which he was more determined than another while he was at the Admiralty, it was that he would not favour the introduction of competitive examination for boys of that early age. On other points he was not able to agree so entirely with the present Board of Admiralty or with the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) who had spoken that evening. As to the question of a Naval College, he did not agree with the Government. He differed also from the views expressed by the noble Duke opposite as to the question of site; and from those of the noble Earl below him (the Earl of Lauderdale), who had given a preference for training ships. He had consulted a great number of distinguished naval officers, and the great majority of them differed in opinion from his noble Friend, and said that a College on shore was far preferable to a ship afloat. He was glad, therefore, that the Board of Admiralty had decided
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  upon giving up training ships and returning to the system of a Naval College. But when he came to the question as to where the College should be, he could not help expressing regret at the decision which the Board of Admiralty had come to. Their Lordships must not be surprised that the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Somerset) had advocated the county of Devon; but it did not rest with any Committee to say whether Devonshire was or was not the best climate for these boys, for it was notorious to everybody that knew that county that the air was very relaxing, and therefore he was sorry that a large body of boys, collected from all parts of the kingdom, should be sent to a College situate in the most relaxing county in it. He would remind their Lordships that the late Government decided not to build a College upon Branksea Island because the air was so relaxing to the constitution; and it would be very difficult to persuade him that the air of Dartmouth, or at any other place on the coast of Devon, was better. But he regretted that Dartmouth had been selected, for he thought the place chosen should have been one where the boys would have ready access to a naval arsenal. If Devonshire were decided upon he should prefer Plymouth, and he could not believe that a good site there could not be found for a Naval College.
  LORD DUNSANYsaid, he did not attach much importance to the fact that the climate of Devon was somewhat relaxing. Supposing the South Coast of England would be prejudicial to the health of these boys, what state would they be in after they left the South Coast of England and went to the West Coast of Africa? He believed that Dartmouth would not be a bad place for these boys, as they would have sea breezes on one side and the air of Dartmoor on the other. Moreover, it was but a short time they would have to spend at the College. To his mind there was no serious objection to Dartmouth, and it ought to be remembered that, according to the plan of the Government, part of the boys' time would be passed in tenders, which would serve as training ships, and that they would thus be enabled to visit some of our arsenals. He did not agree with competitive examinations. They were not a good test of real ability nor of moral qualities, nor

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  of fitness for the service as officers. The boys should learn more of the practical part of seamanship and less of the theoretical. There should be cruisers at Dartmouth for the purpose of exercising the boys in seamanship, and for ascertaining what boys possessed qualities which would make them good and efficient officers. But though competitive examinations should be dispensed with, the Admiralty should not set up a low standard of education, because the naval officers of this country would have to compete with those of other countries, whom they would find to be highly educated.

ECCLESIASTICAL FEES REDISTRIBUTION BILL.
(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)
ECCLESIASTICAL FEES REDISTRIBUTION BILL.

  (NO. 161.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that his object waste take another step in the direction that had already been sanctioned on two occasions by Parliament. So, as 40 years ago, the Legislature, acting on the recommendations of a Commission which had examined into the subject of the Ecclesiastical Courts, passed an Act—the 7 & 8 Vict. c. 68—which enacted that the registrar of every Court exerising an ecclesiastical jurisdiction should transmit to the Treasury an annual account of fees received in each year; and by a subsequent Act—the 10 & 11 Vict. c. 98—it was enacted that every person thereafter appointed to any office of any Ecclesiastical Court in England should hold the same subject to all regulations and alterations which might thereafter be made by the authority of Parliament. It was to carry further the principle of these Acts that the present measure was introduced. The Bill provided, in the first place, that all persons hereafter appointed to ecclesiastical offices should hold the same subject to such regulations or alterations affecting the same or affecting the fees receivable in respect thereof as might be hereafter made by Parliament, and that they should make annual returns to the Treasury of the fees received by them. It was true that by the Acts to which he had referred the same conditions were imposed; but as time had passed
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  on the holders of those offices appeared to have forgotten the terms upon which they held their appointments, and it was therefore necessary to remind them of the conditions by a fresh enactment. It was, however, intended by this Bill to deal gently with the present holders of these offices, and merely to remind them that they held their appointments subject to any re-adjustment of fees that Parliament might hereafter choose to make. But the special purpose of the present Bill was to provide that no such person should hold himself entitled to retain to his use the whole of the fees so received; and it was therefore enacted that all persons who should hereafter be appointed to such offices should pay to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of England such proportion of the fees received by them as they should be required and directed to pay by a body consisting of the Lord Chancellor, the two Archbishops, and the Lord Chief Justice of England; to be placed by the Commissioners to the credit of a fund to be called the Ecclesiastical Pees Fund. This would relate only to the fees or salaries of persons appointed after the present date. It was absolutely necessary that some practical step should be taken in a matter which had from time to time occupied the attention of Parliament for the last 40 years—which had been inquired into by two Select Committees of their Lordships' House, and had been sought to be dealt with by Bills, the first of which he had himself introduced as early as the year 1869. Returns on the subject of the fees proposed to be dealt with had been ordered by their Lordships, but very imperfect Returns had been furnished—the order of their Lordships' House and the distinct provisions of an Act of Parliament on the subject having been in some cases altogether ignored;—and this fact accounted for the late period at which the Bill was presented for their Lordships' consideration. The Bill had one other object, which he would briefly refer to. In the discussion last year on the Public Worship Regulation Bill a question was raised as to the source from which the Judge to be appointed was to be paid, and it was considered that the Judge and the ecclesiastical fees had some sort of connection. The proposal the Bill made was this—that having by the proceedings he had explained obtained a

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  Fee Fund a moderate sum should be paid to the Judge out of that Fund until the matter could be properly adjusted. The two Archbishops had been fortunate enough to find a learned and eminent Judge (Lord Penzance) who had undertaken to discharge the duties of the office, and who was already in receipt of a retiring pension for his previous services to the country. There were, however, certain expenses likely to arise in the administration of justice in the new Court which it would certainly be extremely unfair to require a Judge to defray out of his own resources. The learned and eminent person who had been appointed Judge of the Archbishops' Court of Canterbury and York—Mr. Granville Harcourt Vernon—and who by the provisions of the Act would in process of time become the sole Judge of the Ecclesiastical Courts of Canterbury and York, was ready to undertake those duties, asking only that the moderate expenses to which he had alluded should be repaid to him, and it seemed only reasonable that the Fund in question, which was liable to the distribution of Parliament, should be made available for the purpose. There was one other provision in the Bill—namely, that, whereas in the Provincial Ecclesiastical Court of York the Judge of that Court held various offices under one patent, it was important that he should be able, if he so desired, and as the Bill would enable him to do, to resign the one office without necessarily resigning the other.
  Moved "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, he did not very well see how they could redistribute fees of which, at present, they had little or no knowledge. The Returns to which the most rev. Prelate had referred had been ordered as long back as May, 1874; but up to the present time the results had been very imperfect. No fewer than 11 dioceses had not returned the amount of the fees, amounting, he believed, to an enormous sum, which had been received by the Surrogates, and 40 Archdeaconries had made no Returns at all, in defiance not only of their Lordships' Order, but of an Act of Parliament which required those Returns to be made year by year. At that moment, therefore, they were totally in the dark as to the fees which
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  were to be dealt with, and which, he believed, would be found to be able to bear a heavier burden than was proposed to be laid upon them. He believed they would amount to, at least, £70,000 if properly accounted for.
  EARL NELSONexpressed a hope that as the Bill had been in their Lordships' hands so short a time, and as its second clause affected, in a certain degree, the existing holders of offices which were widely scattered up and down the country, some little time would be allowed to elapse before the Committee stage was taken. These Returns were made compulsory upon many persons, some of them clergymen, who had not hitherto made them, and if they were not made within a certain date they were to be fined £20, which was to be recovered before two justices of the peace at petty sessions. Ample notice ought to be given of this change of the law, so that a mine might not be sprung upon these people without notice. The 6th clause really referred to the salary of the new Judge. As Lord Penzance was to be the new Judge, he had no objection to the salary of the Judge being under this Bill £1,000 as long as he held the office. It was necessary, however, that this office should be held by a person of great weight and authority, and he trusted that a larger salary would be set apart, if necessary, for those who might succeed that noble and learned Judge. He could not understand how the funds for the salary of the new Judge were to be at present obtained. There could be no funds until some of the present holders died or vacated their offices; but the Act made it compulsory to pay the Judge, and he hoped that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners would not have to pay the money out of their own pockets. The Act further stated that these funds were to be returned by January 1, but their Lordships were not told how much they amounted to.
  THE ARCHISHOP OF YORKsaid, there was not the least intention to draw upon the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, as there would be no payment until there were funds in hand. The sum to be paid out of the Ecclesiastical Fees Fund to the Judge appointed under the Public Worship Regulation Act was to be £1,000, which would include £200, the salary of the Judge's clerk. At

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  present, however, all that the Judge would receive would be £700 a-year from the office of Master of the Faculties, which would pass into his hands. It was only right to state that great pains had been bestowed upon this subject, and that there was a scheme in preparation which would be brought before Parliament next Session by which from 30 to 40 per cent of the whole of the fees would be saved to the clergy. The noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) had stated the total amount of the fees to be £70,000; but it would, he believed, be found not to exceed £50,000. The only burden cast upon the Ecclesiastical Fees Fund by the Bill would be £1,000 per annum. The Judge would receive £800, which added to the £700, the salary of Master of the Faculties, would make his total salary £1,500 a-year, and there would be £200 for his clerk. This scheme was acceptable to the Judge, and would, he hoped, receive the assent of Parliament.
  THE BISHOP OF CARLISLEsaid, he thought some change would have to be made in some of the clauses. He strongly objected to the 4th clause, under which anyone who failed to transmit an account of fees received by him within the time appointed might be taken up like a poacher, or other like offender, before two justices and fined £20. There was, moreover, a strong feeling with regard to several of these fees, especially as to churchwardens' fees, the Returns of which were included in the Bill. The reason was that, some time ago, when the authorities who had the power revised these fees throughout the country, they found that they were high in some dioceses and low in others, and they struck an average, and by so doing raised up the latter to the level of the former. Thus the fee for the admission of churchwarden used to be 12 s. 6d. in his diocese. It was now raised to 18 s., and so much dissatisfaction was caused that it was sometimes difficult to obtain payment of the fees at all. He hoped before that Bill became law some alteration would be made in Clause 5, and that it would be made clear that there was an intention to reduce the fees. It was true the objections he took might be met by Amendments in Committee; but he mentioned the points now because he feared the Bill would cause some dissatisfaction, which might
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  be allayed if assurance were given that its defects would be considered in Committee.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the remarks of the right rev. Prelate had reference to matters of detail, which might be re-considered in Committee: for instance, he did not consider it right that the existing officers should be put under penalties to which they were not at present subject. The Bill was professedly a temporary measure, and he agreed with the right rev. Prelate in the hope that this Bill might be regarded as a solemn pledge that the whole question of fees would be dealt with without further delay.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, in reply, thanked his right rev. Brother (the Bishop of Carlisle) for his criticism, and promised that the points he had raised should be considered before the Bill went into Committee. He concurred with the noble and learned Lord in regarding the Bill as a pledge that the matter was to be dealt with seriously, and was to be no longer played with. The noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) had complained that certain Returns had not been made through the surrogates; but as those officers were paid for duties of quite a different character they were not to blame, and he might also mention that the fees estimated by the noble Earl at £70,000 were really £50,000 a-year. It had been said that certain fees which for some years had been received from the proctors, amounting to £3,000, had fallen in, and ought to have been applied by himself and the Bishop of London to the payment of the Judge under the Public Worship Regulation Act. The answer to that was simply that they had no such power. The fees in question lapsed to the person by whose consent they had been diverted for a certain number of years. With regard to time for consideration, if the Bill went into Committee on Friday next, would that satisfy the noble Earl?
  EARL NELSONassented.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of of the Whole House on Friday next.

OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON BILL—(No. 158.)
(The Lord Hampton.)
OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON BILL—(No. 158.)

  THIRD READING.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, (in the absence of Lord Hampton), in moving that the Bill be now read the third time, said, that great disappointment had been felt at the striking out of Clause 4 of the Bill, extending protection to the age of 13, and at the inconsistency with which the Bill, as it now stood, treated children under 13 as adult women, able to take care of themselves, while the Education Act treated them as children to be kept at school.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read a third time, and passed.

  DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (FOURTOWNS, &c.) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm two Provisional Orders under The Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Act, 1863, and the Acts amending the same—Was presented by The LORD PRESIDENT; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 170.)
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.