Lords Sitting of 24 June 1875

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Public Records (Ireland) Act, 1867, Amendment* (168).
Second Sending—Metropolis Management Acts Amendment (145); Canada Copyright (179); Survey (Great Britain) Acts Continuance* (128); Salmon Fishery Act Provisional Order (Taw and Torridge) * (156).
Committee—Intestates Widows and Children (Scotland)* (143).
Committee—Report—Pollution of Rivers (81–169); Endowed Schools Act (1868) Continuance* (109); Glebe Loan (Ireland)* (114); Railway Companies* (111).
Report—Offences against the Person * (158); Gas and Water Orders Confirmation * (70).

NORWICH ELECTION.
  JOINT ADDRESS FOR A COMMISSION.
  Moved to agree with the Commons in the Address to Her Majesty, and to fill up the blank with ("Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and "); agreed to (The Lord Chancellor); and a message sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them that the Lords have agreed to the said Address, and have filled up the blank: The Lord Chamberlain and the Lord Steward to attend Her Majesty with the Address on the part of this House.
METROPOLIS MANAGEMENT ACTS AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 145.)
(The Lord Henniker.)
METROPOLIS MANAGEMENT ACTS AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 145.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Beading, read,
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, that, as this measure had been fully discussed in the House of Commons, and had been agreed upon by a Select Committee, after taking evidence on the subject, he should say but a few words in moving that the Bill be now read the second time. Its object was to remedy a hardship which now existed. Under the Metropolis Management Act, 1855, sec. 163, it was provided that any sewers rate raised under that Act, should as regarded arable and pasture land, market gardens, nursery grounds, &c, be levied in the proportion of one fourth part only of the net annual value—that was to say, they were exempt from 75 per cent of the burden that fell upon other descriptions of property. The Metropolitan Board of Works issued their precepts in a lump sum, based on the printed totals of the valuation lists of the several districts. The districts were bound to make up this sum; but, as they were bound to respect the exemptions of this description of property, the only way they could make up the sum was by levying an increased rate on householders. The hardship was that exempt property did not exist in more than one-half of the metropolitan parishes, but where it did exist was generally in the poorer districts, and the small householders were the sufferers. If the extra rate were taken all over the metropolis—that was to say, if the proposal of this Bill were adopted and the Metropolitan Board of Works were compelled to issue their precepts, with the allowance or abatement of the exemptions where they existed, then the burden would be very light indeed—hardly perceptible—whereas the burden was heavy now, coming as it did upon single districts, and generally upon poor ones. To take a case to illustrate the matter. St. George's, Hanover Square, say, would have very little to complain of; while Plumstead, the district where there was most land and exempt property, would have a great deal to complain of. The one had hardly any, if any, exempt property, and was a rich parish; while the other, getting much less advantage from the action of the Metropolitan Board of Works, had this exempt property, and the householders were nearly all poor. The Metropolitan Board of Works issued a precept for £10,000, say, to each parish; the one which had no exempt property

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  did not suffer, but the one which had exempt property had to raise the same sum; having exempt property, the 75 per cent of exemption must be raised on householders of the parish. This Bill would remedy the evil; the opposition which there had been to it had been disposed of "elsewhere," and he hoped their Lordships would give it a second reading.
  LORD COLCHESTERsaid, he did not oppose the second reading, but thought that the Committee on the Bill should be postponed for a week.
  Motion agreed to:—Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

CANADA COPYRIGHT BILL—(No. 157.)
(The Earl of Carnarvon.)
CANADA COPYRIGHT BILL—(No. 157.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, the measure touched only only part of a large and important subject—it dealt only with the question of copyright so far as it affected Canada and the Canadian people, and therefore he did not intend to trouble their Lord-ships by entering upon the general question of the law of copyright. Up to the year 1842 the importation into this country of foreign reprints was absolutely prohibited; but it was found that as regarded the Provinces of Canada the prohibition could not be maintained, and that a very considerable amount of smuggling of re-printed works from the United States into Canada took place. This gave rise to many complaints, both in this country and in Canada; and the result was the Imperial Act of 1847, which provided that whenever a Colony made such provisions as should be considered satisfactory for the protection of British authors and publishers in such Colony, the Queen, by an Order in Council, might suspend the operation of the Act of 1842. The matter was, therefore, practically left to the Colonial Legislatures. Subsequently, the Legislature of Canada passed an Act by which it was provided that foreign reprints introduced into that Colony should pay an ad valorem duty of 12½ per cent, which should be paid to the owner of
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  the copyright; and this, it was believed, would secure a fair remuneration for authors, reprints of whose works might be so introduced. The Queen by Order in Council gave effect to that Act, and it had been in operation for some time; but the ad valorem duty of 12½ per cent had proved an absolute and entire failure. The works of some of the most eminent English authors of the day continued to be re-printed in the United States, and passed across the Canadian frontier without the payment of any duty whatever; and the result was that—unintentionally so far as the Canadian Government were concerned—those authors had been defrauded of the benefits of the provision which the Legislatures—both the Canadian Legislature and the Imperial Parliament had made for them. In some cases they received from the duty some trifling sums, but in most most cases they received nothing at all. He had heard that the amount received by one eminent author was 40 s., and another, whose works had a very large circulation, and influenced the public as widely as any writings of the present day, had fared still worse, the copyright duty paid to him having amounted to only 25 s. Indeed, the entire produce of the duty for the year 1872–3 was as small a sum as $400. English authors and publishers were placed in a worse position as regarded the fruits of copyright in Canada than they were on the Continent of Europe. If there was one property which belonged to a man, it was his property in the works of his own brain—works which affected not only his own generation, but generations to come. Under the existing system English authors and publishers were not the only sufferers. The Canadian publishers and the Canadian public suffered also. The United States' publishers had the advantage of the Canadian publishers. What were called "advance sheets" of works about to be published in England were sent to publishers in the United States, and by means of those advanced sheets they got the command of the Canadian market. Perhaps it was that the Canadian publishers were too heavily weighted in other respects to compete with the publishers of the United States for "advance sheets;" but, from whatever cause, those sheets did get into the hands of the latter and not into those of

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  the former. The Canadian publishers could not get a sale for such expensive editions of new books as those produced in England; and accordingly they were driven to the pirated editions. Copyright was a difficult subject to deal with even at home, but when in addition to the English author and the English publisher, the colonial publisher had to be considered, the question became much more complicated. He had said that the ad valorem duty plan had failed. It was not difficult to see the reason why. There were some 200 or 300 frontier stations on the line of boundary between the United States and Canada; but there were several thousands of miles of boundary. Their Lordships might imagine then the difficulties of supervision to enforce the payment of duty on the reprints brought into Canada. The necessity for the Colonies of cheaper editions of new works than those published in England must be admitted. He believed that long ago Lord Macaulay and Sir Charles Trevelyan thought it necessary to sanction the introduction of these reprints into India. The fact was that a different system of copyright was required for Canada from that which existed in this country. The Parliament of Canada took that view, and had given effect to it in an Act, which if the Imperial Parliament passed the Bill now before their Lordships he would be able to advise Her Majesty to sanction by Order in Council. Without this Bill he could not do so, for a reason which he would presently explain. The Bill did two things. In the first place, it affirmed the principle that copyright in England should carry copyright in Canada. It would make the owner of an English copyright secure of a copyright for 28 years in Canada; but it did so one condition—that the work should be printed and published, or reprinted and republished, and registered in Canada. The Bill further provided that Canadian reprints of English copyright books should not be allowed to re-enter England. The principle of the latter provision was not a new one. The existing law prohibited an entry to reprints, and it would be impossible to obtain the assent of English publishers to a Bill of this kind if they were not to be protected from cheap reprints which would be imported into this country for the purpose of underselling their own editions. The reason
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  why he was unable to advise the Crown to sanction the Act passed by the Canadian Legislature without this Bill was, that sanction could not be given by Order in Council to any Colonial Bill which was repugnant to an Imperial statute. Now, as the Imperial Act of 1847 allowed the importation of foreign reprints on payment of a certain duty, the recent Act of the Canadian Parliament was in form repugnant to it. The plan which would be sanctioned if this Bill became law was a compromise. He believed it was a reasonable one, and that most authors and publishers would avail themselves of it. Those who did not wish to do so would keep themselves under the existing law and take their chance of what they might receive under the 12½ ad valorem duty. His noble Friend the late Foreign Secretary had found it was a very complicated and arduous task to deal with this question of copyright in the Colonies, and last year he himself felt obliged to advise the Crown to refuse assent to a Colonial Act on this subject which was repugnant to Imperial law. The Act to which he now wished to see the assent of the Crown given was, as he had already explained, repugnant to a provision in an Imperial statute; but the repugnancy was only technical, and he thought it would be much to be lamented if Parliament should not accede to the proposals in the Bill now before their Lordships, though it only dealt with one part of the subject. He might state that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to issue a Royal Commission to deal with all the questions in connection with the subject. He believed, therefore, that this Bill would facilitate a settlement of the subject and bring about much larger results than for the present could be accomplished by the action of the Canadian Legislature.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Carnarvon.)
  EARL STANHOPEsaid, it was now more than 33 years since—in 1842—he introduced a Bill on the subject of copyright. That Bill was not exactly passed in the form in which he first had framed it, but received Amendments suggested in part by Lord Macaulay and in part by Sir Robert Peel. Thus improved he believed he might say that it had worked well and given satisfaction to all parties

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  in England. But in our Colonial Empire the case had been otherwise. He concurred with his noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) that for a growing Colony new works must be produced in a cheaper form than that in which they were usually published in this country; and he also concurred with him as to the disadvantage at which the Canadian publisher was placed by the "advance sheets" of English works which the United States' publisher was able to secure. An international Copyright Act with the United States was most desirable, otherwise it was impossible that the English law could be long allowed to continue in its present state; for while we allowed an American citizen to acquire an English copyright for his books first published here, the like privilege was denied by American law to an English subject publishing his books in America. For instance, Mr. Motley—a name to be mentioned with all respect, and with wishes for the recovery of his health—enjoyed an English copyright for his books published in England; but when Captain Marryatt, although the son of an American lady, applied for the same right for his works in the United States it was denied him on the ground that only an American citizen could acquire a copyright in America. He thought Her Majesty's Government deserved thanks for the Bill introduced by his noble Friend.
  LORD LISGARthought the success of the Bill depended on the single question whether the publishers of Canada would be able to reprint editions of English works as cheap as the United States' publishers could print pirated edition of these works. He was afraid they would not find it worth their while to enter into the competition. The experiment of the new Act and of the Bill before their Lordships was, however, a laudable one, and he wished it success.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, he considered this a very laudable attempt to put this matter on a better footing, and he had greater hopes of the Act succeeding than his noble Friend (Lord Lisgar) seemed to have. The Government of the United States were able to carry out a good copyright all over that large country; and that being so, he did not see why the plan to which this Bill would give effect could not be carried out in
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  Canada. As having taken some part in the negotiations respecting copyright between Canada and this country, he was happy to bear testimony to the good feeling with which they had been conducted on both sides. He hoped those who took an interest in the intellectual advancement of Canada would find their desires promoted by the present legislation.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYadmitted that during the time he was at the Colonial Office no progress was made with this copyright question, and was glad to find his noble Friend had found himself in a position to bring this measure before Parliament. He was afraid that what had been suggested by the noble Lord who had been Governor General of Canada (Lord Lisgar) would turn out to be well founded—he feared that the difficulties in the way of the successful operation of the Act were not so much theoretical as practical. He was afraid that the Canadian Parliament would attempt to do something beyond their power if they endeavoured throughout their long American frontier to shut out the cheap editions published in America. However, as this Bill was in the interest of English authors, he should support it. The Bill was in principle right, and he hoped it would effect the object sought to be attained.
  Motion agreed to:—Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

POLLUTION OF RIVERS BILL.
(No. 81.) (The Marquess of Salisbury.)
POLLUTION OF RIVERS BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the Bill had been kept on the Order Book of the House for a period considerably longer than was originally intended. That was due partly to the fact that ever since the second reading an unfailing stream of deputations had occupied his attention, and had only now terminated. He had had no idea until very recently that the measure could have excited so deep and lively an interest amongst such various classes of persons. Another reason which had induced him to delay proceeding with the Bill in Committee was that he was

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  anxious to arrive at some greater degree of certainty at the limits of legislation which would be prescribed by the progress of Business elsewhere. If it had been necessary to consult only their Lordships' time and willingness to work, it would be easy, he had no doubt, to deal with the whole of the subject, complicated though it might be, during the present Session; but the consideration of the state of Business in "another place" had led him to the conviction that no measure of great complication could be submitted to the House of Commons at the present moment with any chance of passing into law this Session. It became, under those circumstances, necessary for the Government to consider whether they would reduce the Bill by mutilating its proportions, so as to bring it into a shape which presented a greater likelihood of its passing rapidly through the other House, or withdraw it altogether; and he had endeavoured to ascertain the opinion of numerous deputations on that point. He found there was a pretty strong feeling that some of its provisions ought to be placed on the Statute Book as soon as possible, even although those of a more complicated character should have to be deferred to a more convenient season. Now, the Bill divided itself into three principal heads. The first subject with which it dealt was the question of keeping solid pollution out of rivers; and upon that point he found that very little difference of opinion existed, and that persons in all parts of the country were strongly in favour of having that portion of the measure proceeded with. He had deemed it desirable to make the Bill more stringent in one or two particulars. It appeared that a great part of the solids which found their way into rivers and blocked them up were not positively thrown into them, but, having been placed upon the banks, were swept into them by the floods. As the Bill had stood it would not remedy that evil, and it was proposed to make it an offence to cast solid pollution into a stream, though the amount cast by any one person at one time might not be sufficient to interfere with the natural flow. He hoped, even at this period of the Session, that that was a provision which would be placed on the Statute Book. The next question was that of sewage;—and it was not a question of much difficulty or
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  complication, though he could not say the same unanimity existed with respect to it. In permitting sewage to be cast into rivers, it became necessary to deal as a rule, not with individuals, but with corporations invested by law with special powers. The offence, he might add—which was one of recent date—arose from injudicious attempts to provide for the public health, and was in no way connected with private interests. There need be no risk of ruining any individual or any manufacturing interest, because the persons who might be required to purify their sewage were corporate bodies—generally of modern creation—who had the purses of the ratepayers at their command. He therefore proposed to enact that all persons should cease to cast their pollution into the rivers of the country after a limited period, or should take means to purify it. He did not think there would be any opposition to those clauses—in his own county the thing was already done, and he hoped Parliament would not find the provisions of the Bill under that head too complicated to prevent their becoming law this Session. But the third point and real crux of the question was how to deal with the mining and manufacturing pollution. The proposal first made with regard to it in the Bill had met, he was bound to admit, with universal condemnation, and he did not intend to press that proposal further. The real difficulty in the matter lay in the fact that all the factories from which pollution flowed were, as a rule, built in towns and were close together. In such cases the difficulty in the way of each individual destroying his own pollution was almost insurmountable, and, as the Bill stood, it imposed on the manufacturer an obligation of the great difficulties in connection with which he had not been aware. He was, indeed, almost afraid to mention some of the higher figures which he had heard quoted; but taking 2,000,000 gallons a-day, and assuming it to require 24 hours for any chemical to effect the necessary purification, it would be necessary to have a pit 25ft. deep and covering an acre of ground. It was obvious, therefore, that purification could in such cases be accomplished only by carrying the polluted water altogether away. Now, each individual could not himself construct a drain, and the sewage authorities protested most

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  loudly against any compulsory use of the sewers which belonged to them, because dangerous gases would, he was informed, be generated, which would force their way back into the houses. As the purification must be not individual but collective, it was obvious that the duty must be thrown on the locality as a whole. It was as a body that the manufacturers created the evil, and as a body they must correct it; and they could only correct it by means of special sewers, which would carry the pollution to some distant place where its ill-effects would not be felt. But that was not the only difficulty. In some places the dye-works obtained their water from waterworks or wells; and that was water to which the riparian owner had no right, and of which they might lawfully deprive him; they might take it and conduct it away and no harm would be done. But in many cases the water was obtained from the river itself; and if they took it away by artesial drainage the consequences would be that the riparian owners lower down who wanted the water for their steam engines, would be seriously injured. The result was that any effort to correct the terrible pollution of rivers in manufacturing towns could only be made effectual by means of a scheme for each river, to be carried out by some authority on which they should place an obligation like that imposed some years ago on the Metropolitan Board of Works, which was charged with the duty of providing for the general purification of the River Thames. What that authority should be—whether it should be a local Conservancy Board or some other body—was not a matter to be decided now, but might well be left for future discussion. Their Lordships, he thought, would unanimously agree in the proposition that the provisions required for vesting in any such authority the necessary powers for fulfilling that task would be so large and so complicated that the attempt to carry them through the House of Commons at the present time would be impracticable. He therefore proposed to defer that portion of this legislation until next year. He proposed, however, to provide that where the pollution from manufactories came by a channel by which it did not come at the beginning of this year, it should be unlawful; so that they might start from this year and declare that
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  there should be no further pollution of rivers. If so simple a provision had been passed 10 or 20 years ago, much of that evil would have been prevented. It was very desirable, therefore, that Parliament should arrest the further growth of that pollution of rivers until it could adopt some general scheme for each drainage area. They did not want by the present Bill to lay down, or even to hint, that those who were now polluting rivers were at liberty to go on doing so for ever. On the contrary, this was only a necessarily imperfect portion of a scheme, and they did not wish that any Minister who might in future take up that question should be told that it had been previously all settled, and that he must meet the claims of vested interests. As a matter of English he despaired of being able to define a "stream," and therefore he thought it better to say that no stream should be included in the Bill which was not eo nomine proclaimed for that purpose by the Local Government Board. That would afford a security that the measure would not be applied for frivolous ends or objects of annoyance. He thought the County Court was capable of dealing with questions as to sewage, and he proposed to insert a clause giving an appeal to the Superior Courts at Westminster. These were the chief points as to which it had been necessary to change the measure. He trusted that those provisions, or some of them at least, might be fortunate enough to obtain the assent of Parliament this year, for he felt certain that any diminution of the present evil, however small, would be beneficial to the public.
  Moved, That the House do now go into Committee on the said Bill.—(The Marquess of Salisbury).
  LORD ABERDAERsaid, he saw no reason why they should not adopt the suggestion of the noble Marquess, so far as dealing with solid matter was concerned; and he therefore heartily supported him on that part of the Bill. But when they came to the question of sewage, he saw not only difficulty, but formidable objection to what was now proposed. It must be remembered that it was not always possible to remove sewage except by the aid of steam. He did not think the subject was one with

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  which it was impossible for Government to deal, but he believed it to be necessary to secure the co-operation of the local authorities and the manufacturers. The ratepayers of a locality had a great interest in the question; and as the law now stood while you forbad the pollution of streams by pouring sewage into them, you allowed manufacturers to discharge their refuse into them. He was most anxious that something should be done, and thought that a comprehensive scheme which would be acceptable to all parties might be introduced next Session. As to the present Bill, he found it, even with the proposed Amendments, open to many objections.
  LORD SELBORNEdisapproved the proposal to cast upon the County Courts the duty of adjudicating upon sewage cases; this did not come within the proper business of these Courts, and could not, in his opinion, be effectually dealt with by them.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the objection of the noble and learned Lord was perfectly just, and was one of the causes that had led to the Amendment of the Bill; and that in its amended form it would probably be found satisfactory in the respect referred to.
  EARL GRANVILLEthought the noble Marquess had done right in giving up the attempt to pass the Bill in its present shape through both Houses of Parliament this Session. He agreed with his noble Friend (Lord Aberdare), that though it was only intended to give up one portion of the Bill, it was better to postpone the whole subject to next Session, especially considering the clause that the shortened was very liable to be cut short when it got to the other House. He would suggest that before the measure was reprinted the Amendments should be carefully reconsidered, in order that the passing of it by that House might not be followed—as was sometimes the case—by abandonment immediately afterwards in "another place."
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he certainly could not guarantee that the Bill would pass through the other House, even were it made much shorter. It was proposed that no sewage offence should arise under the Bill till after the end of 1876.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly; Bill reported without Amendment; Amendments made; Bill re-committed to a Committee of the "Whole House on Thursday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 169.)

  PUBLIC RECORDS (IRELAND) ACT, 1867, AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Public Records (Ireland) Act, 1867, and to make provision for keeping safely Parochial Records in Ireland—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 168.)
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.