HL Deb 21 June 1875 vol 225 cc242-7
EARL STANHOPE

, in rising to put a Question to his noble Relative who was the Chairman of the Select Committee on the Representative Peerage of Scotland and Ireland which sat last year, and who had conducted the inquiry with so much ability, said, that that Committee had concluded their Report with several recommendations. They represented that since the Union the number of Members of the Lower House representing Scotch constituencies had been increased from 45 to 60, while the number of Scotch Representative Peers remained at 16; and they recommended that an addition of five should be made. As regarded Ireland, in consequence of the disestablishment of the Irish Church, four seats of the holders of spiritual Sees in Ireland in that House had been rendered vacant, and they recommended that their places should be supplied by increasing, to the same extent, that was by four seats, the number of Representative Peers. The noble Earl the Chairman of the Committee brought forward a proposition for securing a representation of the minority at the election of the Representative Peers, but his proposition was defeated. He (Earl Stanhope) was a friend in principle to the representation of minorities, and had voted and spoken in 1868 for the clause in the Reform Bill establishing what were called the three cornered constituencies in counties and in cities. But it must be owned that up to this time the practical results had not been satisfactory, and the system was still upon its trial in the House of Commons. Under these circumstances he (Earl Stanhope) could not give his vote in the Committee for the permanent establishment of that system in the House of Lords. The Committee was unanimous in their opinion that the position of Irish and Scotch Peers, as having high titular rank unaccompanied by legislative duties, was anomalous, and that it was desirable the anomaly should, if means could be found of removing it, be done away with. They did not for a moment entertain the idea of the wholesale introduction of the Irish and Scotch Peers into the House. What they recommended was, that no further creation of Irish Peers should take place:—in Scotland no new creation could take place since the Union. In Ireland, however, it was deemed expedient that no fresh creation of Irish Peers should be made in the Irish Peerage, and accordingly the following Resolution was passed:— They (the Committee) are convinced that every addition to the Irish Peerage only increases and perpetuates the anomalous condition of that body. They would therefore trust that Her Majesty may he advised to renounce her Prerogative of creating Irish Peers, with a view to the modification of the 4th Article of the Union. It was also suggested that it was desirable the Irish should, like the Scottish Representative Peers, be elected for life; while, on the other hand, a different party contended, like the Scottish, that it was better the Irish Peers should be elected for a Parliament only. The subject was so wide and went into so many branches that it might be difficult to deal with it by a single measure, but the first step was to ascertain what might be the views of his noble Relative on the matter. He therefore begged to ask the Chairman of the Select Committee on the Representative Peerage of Scotland and Ireland which sat last year, Whether he intends to bring forward any Motion to give effect to all or any of the recommendations of that Committee?

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, he was exceedingly obliged to his noble Relative for putting to him this Question, as it gave him an opportunity of stating what was in his opinion the right method of dealing with the recommendations of the Committee. When the labours of the Committee in taking evidence were concluded, it was his duty to draft the Report and lay it before them. Some of the recommendations of the Committee related to matters of great importance, and might be the subject of enactment of the Legislature. Others were of minor importance, and not worth taking up, unless the subject were taken up as a whole. The major recommendations were three in number—first, that no more Irish Peers should be created; secondly, that there should be an increase in the number of Irish and Scotch Representative Peers; and thirdly, that there should be some mode of enabling the minority to select Representatives out of the whole body of Peers. The minor recommendations were—first, that there should be a new roll of Scotch Peers; secondly, that Scotch Peers should be allowed to sit in the House of Commons; thirdly, that Scotch Representative Peers should be elected for life; and fourthly, that Irish and Scotch Peers should be enabled to sit for any constituency in the United Kingdom. With regard to the recommendation that Scotch Peers should be enabled to sit in the House of Commons, two noble Lords who had taken the trouble to ascertain the opinion of the Scotch Peers on the subject found that the great majority of those Peers did not at all view the proposal with favour; and as it was not the object of the Committee to confer privileges on the Scotch Peers which they would look upon as an insult—or at any rate which they did not regard with favour—the Committee were ready to drop that recommendation. As to the three main recommendations, which might be made the subject of enactments, he would take, first, the increase of the number of Scotch and Irish Representative Peers. That recommendation was passed unanimously; but, as the accompanying recommendation in favour of the representation of the minority was rejected by a majority of three, it was impossible for any one thinking as he did on that matter to bring forward a proposal that the number of Representative Peers should be increased while the election was conducted under the present vicious system. He did not wish unduly to stigmatize the existing arrangements for electing Representative Peers; but he held that it would not be a benefit, but an evil to increase their number without some such safeguard as the cumulative vote. As to the recommendation that the Crown should not create any more Irish Peers there were several difficulties connected with it. The first was, that it was not very clear in what manner it should be carried out. But there was another objection of greater weight to his attempting to give effect to that object of the Committee. Last year a noble Lord opposite (Lord Inchiquin) brought it forward in that House in a speech which they all agreed was remarkable for its ability; but his Motion was negatived by the noble Duke the Leader on the Ministerial side, because such an extensive constitutional change ought not to be proposed except upon the responsibility of the Government of the day. He himself, therefore, had not thought it right to offer any recommendations to their Lordships as to the limitation of the Prerogative of the Crown with respect to the creation of Irish Peers. With regard to the entire Report of the Committee, it must be remembered that it comprised several clauses, and that on them there were eight closely contested divisions. It was, therefore, hardly possible for him, as Chairman, to bring forward, on his own responsibility, the recommendations of that Report as in any degree embodying" the unanimous opinions of the Committee. He thanked his noble Relative for giving him the opportunity of making that statement.

LORD CARLINGFORD

, as a Member of the Committee, said, that one part of the subject appeared to him to be of very great interest and importance. He referred to the proposal that the Crown should be humbly applied to with a view to the relinquishment of the Prerogative of creating Irish Peers. As an Irishman, perhaps he looked on the present state of that part of the law and of the Prerogative with more sensitive feelings than many of their Lordships; but he regarded it as a very serious anomaly, tending to keep up ideas of distinction and separation between the two countries which he was sure they were all anxious by every means to diminish and finally extinguish, and as maintaining a condition of inequality between those two great portions of the Realm that was highly inexpedient and mischievous. As things now stood, it was not even optional with the Crown to create or not to create Irish Peerages; the Crown was under a compulsion to keep up the Irish Peerages to a certain number—a most strange and undesirable state of matters. Sir Bernard Burke had proved before the Committee that the strongest objection was felt at the time of the Union by the Irish Peers who supported the Act of Union to the clause which was inserted for reserving to the Crown the power of creating Irish Peerages in future. The clause was carried solely by the influence of the Government of the day—not to meet any Irish views or wishes, but merely to maintain that branch of Ministerial patronage in this country. He did not think that any Irish susceptibilities would be wounded by the abandonment of that part of the Prerogative, and, he believed, that the final closing of the Irish Peerage would be a real benefit to the country.

EARL GREY

contended that the system of election of the Scotch and Irish Peers to that House was unsound, and that the creation of more Irish Peers would be an unmixed evil. Looking at the recommendations of the Committee, he was not surprised that the noble Chairman had declined to take any steps in reference to them. On the contrary, the noble Earl had exercised a wise discretion in not doing so. It was, however, the duty of the Government to bring the subject before the House, and to prevent, if possible, any further complication in reference to it.

THE EARL OF AIRLIE

understood his noble Friend to say that though the Report recommended that the Scotch Peers not in that House should be placed on the same footing as the Irish Peers not in that House, yet that the opinions expressed by the Scotch Peers themselves were to the effect that they did not desire it. Now, he (the Earl of Airlie) had himself proposed to embody that recommendation in the Report; but there was such a strong opinion in the Committee against his proposition that he did not venture to press it. He hoped that some day the Scotch Peers would be in a better frame of mind on that point.