Lords Sitting of 5 August 1875

MINUTES.
PUBLIC Bins—First Reading—National School Teachers (Ireland)* (258); Sanitary Law (Dublin) Amendment* (259); Expiring Laws Continuance* (260); East India Homo Government (Appointments)* (261); Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1867, Amendment* (262).
Second Reading—Government Officers (Security)* (251); Metropolitan Board of Works (Loans)* (244).
Committee—Militia Laws Consolidation and Amendment* (243–264).
Committee—Report—Traffic Regulation (Dublin)* (239).
Report—Turnpike Acts Continuance (222).
Third Reading—Conspiracy and Protection of Property (249); Employers and Workmen (241); Lunatic Asylums (Ireland)* (235), and passed.

CONSPIRACY AND PROTECTION OF PROPERTY BILL—(Nos. 220, 240, 249.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
CONSPIRACY AND PROTECTION OF PROPERTY BILL—(Nos. 220, 240, 249.)

  THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved to insert, after Clause 14, the following clause:—
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  (" Maliciously" in this Act construed as in Malicious Injuries to Property Act.)
  "The word 'maliciously' used in reference to any offence under this Act shall he construed in the same manner as it is required by the fifty-eighth section of the Act relating to malicious injuries to property, that is to say, the Act of the session of the twenty-fourth and twenty-fifth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter ninety-seven, to be construed in reference to any offence committed under such last mentioned."
  Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.
  Further Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

EMPLOYERS AND WORKMEN BILL. (Nos. 218, 241.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
EMPLOYERS AND WORKMEN BILL. (Nos. 218, 241.)

  THIRD READING.
  Bill read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved to insert, after Clause 11, the following clause, which had been proposed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Rosebery):—
  (Set off in case of factory workers.)
  "In the case of a child, young person, or woman subject to the provisions of the Factory Acts, 1833 to 1874, any forfeiture on the ground of absence or leaving work shall not be deducted from or set off against a claim for wages or other sum due for work done before such absence or leaving work, except to the amount of the damage (if any) which the employer may have sustained by reason of such absence or leaving work."
  Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.
  Further Amendments made; Bill and sent to the Commons.

MILITIA LAWS CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 243.)
(Earl Cadogan.)
MILITIA LAWS CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 243.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, the question now arose whether the Militia was to be a substantive force with an administration of its own. The principle of feudality which had hitherto prevailed in respect of this Reserve was past and dead; but, though no doubt that was intended, some of the clauses of the Bill were inconsistent with the carrying out of such intention. He thought they ought to be careful in interfering with the organization of a force which had proved itself so efficient. All regulations emanating from the Commander-in-Chief and the Secretary for War the

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  officers of the Militia would receive with confidence and respect. He would add that he had perfect and absolute confidence in the Assistant Adjutant Generals; but he would suggest that there ought to be an additional Assistant Adjutant General of Militia. He had viewed with pleasure the adoption of a system by which Army officers now joined the Militia; but he had not observed any signs as yet of the Militia officers joining the Regular Army, and he hoped shortly to see the prospect of a successful arrangement between the two branches of the service.
  House in Committee.
  Clauses 1 to 20, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 21 (Appointments and commissions of officers).
  EARL CADOGAN, in reply to the noble Lord's (Lord Waveney's) criticism, reminded him that the Bill was, in reality, merely a consolidation Bill, and that it did not preclude the future consideration of the reforms which he advocated.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHtook occasion to observe that the recent Regulations issued by the War Office for the appointment of officers of the Army as adjutants in the Militia were, in his view, of the most objectionable character. Ever since the formation of the force it was of a local character, and had always been looked upon as a local force, ranged in the different districts, and commanded by its own officers; and if they now proceeded to appoint officers in the Army as adjutants, he believed that they would totally destroy the local character of the force, and he was confident that if they destroyed its local character they would destroy it altogether, because he believed that Militia recruits would never consent to join a force that was not commanded by the officers connected with the county, but by those of whom they knew nothing at all. Under 42 Geo. III., special restrictions were made with regard to the appointment of adjutants of Militia. They must possess certain qualifications; but now they were taken out of the Staff of the depôt, and he would point out that it was not necessary that because a man was a good soldier, and performed his other duties extremely well, he would be a good adjutant. Another objection to the proposal was that the adjutants of Militia regiments had duties to perform
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  for which experience in those duties and a knowledge of the locality were essential. They had to attend Central Boards of Examination, do the work of brigade majors, and several other things. A young officer from a Line regiment would find himself like a fish out of water during the first two years of his adjutancy of Militia, and the office was to be held for only five years. The object of the Warrant seemed to be to get rid of the present adjutants, because it gave them a higher rate of retirement if they resigned at once, but informed them that if they insisted on remaining in for a year or years longer they would receive only the old rate of retirement. Under the present system the regiments were improving in efficiency every year.
  THE EARL OF SANDWICHwas also of opinion that it would be a great mistake to make any change in the class of officers who now discharged the duties of Militia adjutants. He would remind their Lordships that all officers of the Line, with the exception of the colonel, were under the regimental control of some other officer or officers. The adjutant of a Militia regiment was his own master for the greater part of the year, and they were going to put young officers of Line regiments into that position.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORbegged to suggest to their Lordships that the question on which the noble Duke and the noble Earl had just addressed their Lordships was in no way touched by the clause now before the Committee.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, the appointment of adjutants was of great importance, and the greatest care ought to be taken with reference to it. His 23 years' experience had taught him that the adjutants were the life and soul of the regiments. Smart men of the Line know nothing of the feeling and temperament of the men of the Militia. He trusted the Government would re-consider the question discussed by the noble Duke and the noble Earl.
  VISCOUNT CARDWELLconcurred with his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) that this question of the adjutants was in no way raised by this Bill. It was one which had recently been discussed in their Lordships' House, and he thought the explanation given of the Warrant was satisfactory. There were a number of adjutants of Militia regiments who desired a better scale of retirement;

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  there were a number of commanding officers of Militia regiments who were not satisfied with their adjutants; and there were a number of officers of the Line who would prefer becoming adjutants of Militia to going out on half-pay from the Army. If, as he understood, the Warrant was intended to meet those cases, he thought there was much to be said for it; but the question did not arise on this clause, nor was it raised by this Bill.
  EARL CADOGANsaid, that the case had been correctly stated by the noble Viscount. Various complaints had been made by adjutants, and the Secretary for War had devised this scheme of retirement to meet those complaints, and now it was said that the Government were forcing these adjutants out of the service. Those officers who did not wish to perform the new duties which would fall to their share would be able to accept the retiring pay, which would be very advantageous, and those who did not retire would remain in the service under the old conditions. The whole subject of the duties and position of the Militia adjutants was under the consideration of a Committee of the War Office, and he hoped that the Report would meet with the approbation of all parties.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHconsidered that the clause was an intimation by the Secretary of State to these adjutants that they ought to retire from the service on this increased pension, and that if they did not they would be placed in a disadvantageous position. The noble Duke also complained of the new arrangements in reference to the position in which the adjutants' clerks would be placed.
  LORD DENMANsaid, it would be extremely hard on any Judge who might have earned a retiring pension, if he were told that, at the end of 15 years, he must immediately retire, or submit to a smaller reward than those who suddenly quitted the Bench, and it was equally unjust to impose any such analogous conditions on adjutants, and he expressed a hope that the Government would endeavour to make provision for the retention of the services of the adjutants.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKjoined those who were of opinion that the scheme of retirement did practically convey
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  a threat that if the adjutants did not now retire on a certain amount of pension, they would be placed on worse terms hereafter both as regarded their duties and pensions.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he was sure that the opinions which had been expressed by his noble Friends would be very carefully considered by the Secretary of State for War; and he had authority to state that there was nothing further from his right hon. Friend's intention than either to cast any slur upon those gentlemen or to evince a desire to dispense with their services; still less to show any want of courtesy or confidence to the colonels of Militia.
  Clause verbally amended, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 264.)

TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.
(Earl Jersey)
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.

  (NO. 222.) REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to order.)
  THE EARL OF CHICHESTRobjected to Clause 9, which would transfer the rating of certain hundreds in the county of Kent from the local authorities to the county authorities, and moved that it be struck out.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsupported the clause.
  LORD REDESDALEsupported the Amendment.
  On Question, "That the clause stand part of the Bill?" Their Lordships divided:—Contents 15; Not - Contents 13: Majority 2.
  Resolved in the affirmative.
  An Amendment made; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

LICHFIELD CAPITULAR ESTATES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD VERNONasked the First Church Estates Commissioner, Whether, the Bishop of Lichfield having refused his consent, as visitor to the Dean and Chapter of Lichfield, to the scheme for commuting their capitular estates, under

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  31st and 32nd Victoria, chap. 114, unless they comply with a stipulation that has no reference to the scheme or the Act under which it is framed, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners intend to acquiesce in such refusal, or whether they will in the next Session of Parliament introduce a Bill to amend the Act by either dispensing with such consent altogether or giving an appeal to the Archbishop of Canterbury? The noble Lord said, that the question was one of considerable local interest, and the whole of the circumstances had been already published. The right rev. Prelate, actuated, no doubt, by conscientious conviction, had refused his assent to the scheme because it did not contain two conditions which the Dean and Chapter and the Commissioners both said they had not sufficient funds to carry out; but it was evident from the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that they did not approve of the action of the right rev. Prelate. If that was the case he wished to know whether the Commissioners were going to allow the matter to rest there. Great benefit would accrue from the adoption of the scheme, and he wished to know whether that benefit was to be lost because the right rev. Prelate wished to force his will upon an unwilling Dean and Chapter.
  THE EARL OF CHICHESTERsaid that, so far as he knew, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had no intention of applying to Parliament for additional powers, and that, in fact, it was not the duty or the practice of this Commission to originate legislation. In answer to the noble Lord's other Question—namely, whether the Commissioners acquiesced in the course taken by the right rev. Prelate, he would just refer to what had actually occurred. In the Report of the Estates Committee, dated the 30th of January, 1873, they stated—
  "The scheme for giving effect to this agreement is framed under certain statutory provisions which it may be observed have now been applied, or are in course of being applied, to all the other Capitular Bodies in the Kingdom, the only two Chapters which have not so commuted their estates being now in communication with the Commissioners with that view, and one of these provisions makes the consent of the Visitor of the Dean and Chapter a necessary condition to enable the Commissioners, after agreeing with the Chapter for such commutation, to submit for ratification by Her Majesty in Council a scheme for carrying Out the agreement. It appears, however, to the Committee impossible
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  to conceive that the discretion thus given to the Visitor was intended to be used, or that it should be used otherwise than in reference to the provisions of the scheme laid before him by the Capitular Body."
  No action was taken by the Board upon that Report, nor did he see that any further steps were within the powers of the Estates Committee or of the Board. The Estates Committee in the Report expressed their opinion, he thought, clearly and strongly, as adverse to the course adopted by the right rev. Prelate. In that opinion, he (the Earl of Chichester) entirely concurred. It was quite true that the delay complained of inflicted a considerable hardship on the incumbents of small livings in the patronage of the Chapter, since it indefinitely postponed the consideration of the local claims with the view of their augmentation. The delay was also to be regretted on the ground that the Chapter estates continued to be granted out on beneficial leases, and their unimproved and unimprovable condition was prolonged. That was a loss not only to the Church, but to the country. He did not feel called upon to say a word either in favour of or against the project of the right rev. Prelate to which the Dean and Chapter refused their consent, or, rather, to which they demurred, beyond this, that his late friend the Dean of Lichfield (Dean Champneys) was the last man in the world to offer an obstructive opposition to any scheme which, in his opinion, might tend to the welfare or efficiency of the Church.
  THE BISHOP OF LICHFIELDsaid, the course adopted by the noble Lord who had asked that Question seemed to be unusual and inconvenient. A discretion was given by law to the Bishop to withhold his consent from a scheme for the transfer of the capitular estates to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. If that discretion was used unlawfully, the remedy lay in an appeal to a Court of Law. If the discretion so vested in the Bishop was in itself inexpedient, it could be withdrawn by the Legislature. The question related, in fact, to a conflict of discretions. The Dean and Residentiary Chapter of Lichfield had a discretion to refuse to bring into operation the provisions contained in two Acts of Parliament for the revival of two suspended Canonries. The assumption of the noble Lord that he (the Bishop of Lichfield) was the only person to blame, seemed to

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  him unfair. It was said that he hindered the augmentation of poor benefices in the patronage of the Chapter. If the Dean and Chapter were to agree to his proposal, he would sign their scheme, and then the difficuly would be at an end. The other party was as much to blame as he was, unless their reasons were altogether good, and his altogether bad. That remained to be proved, and ought not to be assumed. It was not likely that he should have disagreed with an honoured friend like the late Dean Champneys, without some strong reason touching his sense of duty. That was not the time or place to state all his reasons, some of which were of a very delicate and personal kind; but he might say that when a large sum of public money was to be placed at the disposal of any corporate body, the common sense of mankind required that body to fill up its vacancies, and make itself in every way as efficient as possible. The General Chapter of Lichfield had passed a resolution that the number of canonries ought to be raised to six, by the revival of the two which were now suspended. It was not the case, as the noble Lord had said, that he (the Bishop of Lichfield) was trying to impose his will upon the Dean and Residentiary Chapter; but that he was endeavouring to carry out the Resolution which the General Chapter had adopted, and to bring into operation the provisions of two Acts of Parliament for the revival of suspended Canonries.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.