MOTION FOR PAPERS. (Hansard, 24 March 1874)

§ EARL DE LA WARR
having presented a Petition from the Chamber of Commerce and Manufactures of the City of Edinburgh on the subject of Railway Accidents, moved for certain Correspondence in relation thereto. The noble Earl said he had been somewhat disappointed to find that the question of railway management formed no part of the programme of the Government for the present Session as disclosed in the Speech from the Throne. It was proposed to deal with the question of the transfer of land, with Friendly Societies, and with the law relating to Masters and Servants. He did not question the importance of these matters, but he doubted whether they ought to occupy so important a place as to exclude from the immediate consideration of Parliament, the subject of railway management. It was 310 exaggeration to say that feelings of alarm and apprehension had been raised in the public mind by the reports of railway accidents which had appeared in the newspapers, and those feelings had been much intensified by the Circular addressed by the Board of Trade. It was clear that the safety of life and limb was not sufficiently provided for. In the last six months 120 passengers had been killed, and 900 injured—and these figures, large as they were, applied to passengers only, and did not include railway servants. How many of these had suffered was not known, for the Returns were admittedly imperfect; but the Report of the Board of Trade for 1872 gave the number of railway servants killed at 632, and the injured at 1,395. He concurred in a statement contained in a Petition he had presented from Edinburgh, that the chief causes of railway accidents were to be found in long and uncertain hours 260 of labour, facilities for obtaining liquor, want of punctuality, and undue speed. Again, there was another cause which lay at the root of the evil—namely, an enormous increase of traffic without anything like a corresponding increase of the means of conveying it. The railway Returns for the last 12 months showed an increase of heavy traffic at the rate of 10 per cent for each week. In the year 1855, the total receipts from traffic were £24,000,000, but in 1872 they had risen to upwards of £60,000,000. The consequence was that the trains had to be run at the shortest possible intervals. At a recent inquiry it was stated that trains were started at intervals of only three or four minutes. 'Their Lordships were aware that even at the present time, tinder the Act compelling the companies to make Returns of the deaths and injuries sustained by their servants through accidents, those Returns were very imperfect. He must express a hope that the Government would give this most important question a very early consideration, otherwise we might be certain of the sacrifice of 500 more lives during the next six months. He did not wish to in any way embarrass the Government, but if they did not take some step to remedy the evil, he would feel it his duty to come forward with distinct propositions on the subject.

§ THE EARL OF DUNMORE
, in reply, said, he would refer the noble Earl who had moved for the Papers, to Returns already on their Lordships' Table which would show that the Board of Trade had urged on railway companies the duty of furnishing correct Returns of the accidents which occurred to their servants, and the Board had done all in their power to obtain these Returns. The inquiry had been instituted by the action of the Board of Trade itself, and was not owing to any pressure from without. Subject to certain verbal alterations which he would point out to his noble Friend, there would be no objection to the production of the Papers.

§ VISCOUNT MIDLETON
hoped some step would be taken by the Board of Trade to deal more vigorously with the subject of railway management, for at present it had very little power in respect of railways. Some time ago an accident occurred in the South of Ireland, on the Cork and Bandon line, and the Inspector of the Board of Trade who inquired into it, made as strong a Report against the Company as could well have been drawn up. He reported that the permanent way was in an unsatisfactory condition, and that the engines were old and worn out. When he read that Report he inquired of the Board of Trade what measures it intended to adopt; but to his astonishment he learnt that all the Board could do was to lay before Parliament the Report of its Inspectors. This Report of the Inspector showed the necessity for immediate interference, yet all that the Board could do was to lay it before the House. A change was therefore necessary, and he hoped the subject would receive immediate attention.

§ LORD CARLINGFORD
said, he did not think their Lordships could conveniently enter into the large questions of the cause and the prevention of railway accidents on a Motion the terms of which would not lead anyone to suppose that it was intended to raise those questions. They were of the last importance, and when the Motion of which the noble Earl (Earl De La Warr) had given Notice came on, after Easter, noble Lords would, no doubt, be prepared to discuss them. He only rose to say a word or two in reference to the Returns made to the Board of Trade. The noble Earl who represented that Department in that House (the Earl of Dunmore) was quite right when he stated to their Lordships that the Board of Trade had made the greatest efforts to obtain the Returns from the railway companies; but there existed a great confusion in the public mind with respect to these Returns. There were two distinct classes of railway accidents—namely, accidents to the public as distinguished from accidents to the servants of railway companies. It could not be denied that up to this, the Returns with respect to the latter class of accidents had been incomplete, and therefore fallacious; but there was no reason whatever for supposing that we were not, and that we had not been for 262 years past, in possession of complete Returns as to accidents to the travelling public. There was not, until a very recent period, any Returns of accidents to railway servants—not, indeed, until the year before last, when he got an Act passed which made it compulsory on railway companies to furnish to the Board of Trade Returns of the deaths and injuries to their servants caused by railway accidents. He believed there was much exaggeration as to the imperfect character of the Returns furnished under that Act; but, at the same time, it was perfectly true that they did not contain the whole of the melancholy catalogue of those accidents. He believed, however, that the shortcoming of the companies in this respect was owing to the newness of the duty imposed upon them by the Act. The Board of Trade had done all they could to obtain complete Returns, but it was hardly to be expected that the thing could be done at once. In September last the Board of Trade instituted proceedings against the Lancashire and Yorkshire Company, which would have been continued, only that the Secretary came to the Board and apologized for the imperfect nature of the Returns, which, he said, was attributable solely to the newness of the Act, and the ignorance of the company's servants. He promised that every effort would be made in future to have the Returns full and complete. The Board of Trade had reason to think that the Returns made by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Company before those proceedings were more deficient than those issued by any other company. He mentioned this circumstance because some ingenious gentleman, writing in the Press, comparing those Returns with the figures which, from his own inquiries, was led to believe ought to have been given by the company, and then went on to assume that there was the same difference between the number of accidents furnished by every other company and the number which it ought to have returned, He believed, however, there was no ground for that conclusion. He would venture to suggest to the Board of Trade that there was another class of Return which the companies ought to be required to furnish with punctuality. After the Sittings of the Committee presided over by the noble Duke behind him (the Duke of Somerset) he introduced at the 263 end of last Session a short Bill, making it compulsory on railway companies to report the progress it made in the adoption of the block and interlocking systems. That Bill was passed, and he thought he might venture to say that when passing it the intention of the Legislature was to closely watch the progress of the companies, and ultimately to compel them to adopt those systems, if they did not of themselves gradually introduce them. It had boon shown that they could not be introduced on all lines in a week or a month, and therefore time was given to the companies; but he thought that if fair and rapid progress was not made in this respect, they ought to have recourse to compulsion. Regarding these Returns as of great importance, he hoped the Board of Trade would take care that they should be obtained and laid before the House as quickly as possible.

§ THE DUKE OF RICHMOND
expressed his entire concurrence in what had fallen from the noble Lord opposite, that it would be inconvenient at present to enter upon this large subject of railway accidents, and the difficulties which had arisen, and would probably arise regarding the safe carrying of the public. The question was a larger one than the noble Earl who had brought it forward had led them to expect by his Notice on the Paper. He could endorse all that had been said in reference to the Board of Trade. Under the late and previous Governments the Board of Trade had done everything in its power to obtain accurate information on the subject of railway accidents, and he did not hesitate to promise that the present Board would take care that the important Returns required by the Act introduced by the noble Lord should be duly sent in by railway companies.