Lords Sitting of 24 March 1874

MINUTES.
TOOK THE OATH—Several Lords.
PRIVATE BILLS.
Ordered, That section 4. of Standing Order, No. 179, be suspended in respect of Bills originating in this House and included in either of the two classes of Private Bills in Standing Order, No. 178; and that all such Bills be read a second time on Friday the 27th instant; and that all Petitions praying to be heard upon the merits against any such Bill be presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office before Three o'clock in the afternoon on or before Saturday the 4th day of April next.
SOUTH SEA ISLANDS.

  ADDRESS FOR CORRESPONDENCE.
  THE EARL OF BELMORErose to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies or Extracts of any further Correspondence respecting outrages committed upon Natives of the South Sea Islands, and to ask a
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  Question. His present Motion might be regarded as a renewal of a Motion which he made at the end of last Session, but which the noble Earl the late Secretary for the Colonies requested him not to press, as the Papers were at that time incomplete. Nine months had since elapsed, and probably a good deal of further information had been received in the meantime. He was not aware whether any serious cases of outrage, such as those to which his Motion referred had occurred within the past year; but he observed that, in answer to a deputation of the Aborigines Protection Society, which waited upon him a few days since, his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (the Earl of Carnarvon) stated that grave cases had been brought to his notice, and he (the Earl of Belmore) now desired to know whether the cases referred to were new ones. With reference to the Fiji Islands, he did not wish to go into individual cases; but he wished to know the exact tenor of the instructions given to Commodore Goodenough. He was under the impression that the subject of inquiry was to be whether the Government of those Islands should be recognized, and generally into the question of the outrages on the Natives. The late Ministry had directed the Governors of our Australian Colonios to deal with the Government of the Fiji Islands as a de facto Government, but formal recognition of that Government was withheld. He thought it was wise of Her Majesty's late Government to give the Government of the Fiji Islands a fair trial; but he believed it had entirely broken down, and that the White residents were greatly dissatisfied with the so-called Government. Such a Government, under the headship of an uneducated Native Chief, was not likely to repress outrages and sustain order. He had seen it stated lately that the object of the Commission to the Islands was to inquire as to the propriety of annexation. If that were so, it would indicate a change of policy on the part of Her Majesty's late Government. The question of annexation was raised 15 years ago under different circumstances, and it was again considered by Her Majesty's Government in 1870. Lord Canterbury had in that year forwarded, after an Inter-colonial Conference at Melbourne, a Memorandum from his Ministers to the

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  Secretary of State, which was replied to by a definite refusal to annex the Islands. He (the Earl of Belmore) had had a copy of this reply communicated to him, and had forwarded a Minute to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Kimberley), from his own Ministers expressing regret at the decision which had been arrived at. He (the Earl of Belmore) read an extract from the Melbourne Argus which stated that very large quantities of sugar were raised within the Islands. The question was one of considerable importance; but it was surrounded with difficulties, and, in the absence of the information he now asked for, he gave no opinion as to whether there should be an annexation. If Her Majesty's Government resolved on doing anything in that way, what they ought to do, in the first instance, was to establish a Government for those Islands in the nature of the Government of a Crown Colony; in which case the Colonial Office would retain a control over it. The noble Earl concluded by asking what was the exact nature of the Commission and instructions which were given to Commodore Goodenough, R.N., and Mr. Consul Layard, as Royal or Special Commissioners to the Fiji Group of Islands; and by moving an Address for Correspondence.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copies or Extracts of any further correspondence respecting outrages committed upon natives of the South Sea Islands, in continuation of the papers upon this subject laid before the House last Session.—(The Earl of Belmore.)
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, that the Motion of his noble Friend divided itself into two distinct and different branches. As to that part of it which referred to the production of Papers having reference to the alleged outrages, there was no objection to their production; but, of course, he would like to have an opportunity of selecting such as were important, as there were others which might not be worth having printed and circulated. What he had said to the deputation which he had received some days ago, and what he repeated now was, that beyond doubt there was evidence—evidence one regretted to see—that a most detestable traffic was carried on in those Seas. The case of the Daphne, if it were reported
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  correctly, was, perhaps, the very worst case of the kind that he had ever read of. Unfortunately, there were such great difficulties in the way of putting a stop to this traffic that it was almost impossible, under present circumstances, to hope for its complete suppression. The temptations were very great, the facilities for carrying on the traffic were considerable, the gains from it; were heavy, and there was the consideration that for years to come the Islands could not be under any settled government. All those circumstances were so many temptations to the persons who made use of those unfortunate islanders; and, in addition, there was a superstition which made the inhabitants unwilling to labour on their own Islands, and so made them the easier prey for those who carried them into actual slavery. Still he had to qualify what he had said upon the subject by observing that he-was in possession of evidence which showed that, on the whole, the Act passed in 1872 had been productive of good. The cases of conviction under that Act had been few; but there was reason to believe that it had deterred persons from carrying on and engaging in the traffic. There were two prohibitory enactments in that Act. The first prohibited the conveyance of those islanders in any British ship not specially licensed to take them on board. Two ships had been seized, and proceedings taken against the captains for a violation of that provision; but, it appearing that they had acted in ignorance, they were dismissed on payment of costs. The second portion of the enactment was more important—namely, a provision against the decoying of the islanders, which was made punishable as a felony. This portion of the Act had been applied in the Australian Colonics, where the tribunals showed every disposition to carry it into effect. He believed that there had been no failure of justice whore proceedings had been instituted under it before those tribunals. The case of the Carl, of which their Lordships had before heard, had been heard under another Act. As regarded the second part of his noble Friend's Motion, he was not in a condition to comply with it. The Papers included in it had reference to a Commission appointed to inquire into various matters relating to the Islands. The Commissioners were

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  either engaged in their work or completing it at the present time, and it appeared to him undesirable that confidential despatches should be produced before the Report of the Commissioners. "When the Report arrived there would be no objection to produce the other Papers. The question of annexation was an important one; but this was not the occasion to discuss it.
  Motion agreed to.

RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  EARL DE LA WARRhaving presented a Petition from the Chamber of Commerce and Manufactures of the City of Edinburgh on the subject of Railway Accidents, moved for certain Correspondence in relation thereto. The noble Earl said he had been somewhat disappointed to find that the question of railway management formed no part of the programme of the Government for the present Session as disclosed in the Speech from the Throne. It was proposed to deal with the question of the transfer of land, with Friendly Societies, and with the law relating to Masters and Servants. He did not question the importance of these matters, but he doubted whether they ought to occupy so important a place as to exclude from the immediate consideration of Parliament, the subject of railway management. It was 310 exaggeration to say that feelings of alarm and apprehension had been raised in the public mind by the reports of railway accidents which had appeared in the newspapers, and those feelings had been much intensified by the Circular addressed by the Board of Trade. It was clear that the safety of life and limb was not sufficiently provided for. In the last six months 120 passengers had been killed, and 900 injured—and these figures, large as they were, applied to passengers only, and did not include railway servants. How many of these had suffered was not known, for the Returns were admittedly imperfect; but the Report of the Board of Trade for 1872 gave the number of railway servants killed at 632, and the injured at 1,395. He concurred in a statement contained in a Petition he had presented from Edinburgh, that the chief causes of railway accidents were to be found in long and uncertain hours
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  of labour, facilities for obtaining liquor, want of punctuality, and undue speed. Again, there was another cause which lay at the root of the evil—namely, an enormous increase of traffic without anything like a corresponding increase of the means of conveying it. The railway Returns for the last 12 months showed an increase of heavy traffic at the rate of 10 per cent for each week. In the year 1855, the total receipts from traffic were £24,000,000, but in 1872 they had risen to upwards of £60,000,000. The consequence was that the trains had to be run at the shortest possible intervals. At a recent inquiry it was stated that trains were started at intervals of only three or four minutes. 'Their Lordships were aware that even at the present time, tinder the Act compelling the companies to make Returns of the deaths and injuries sustained by their servants through accidents, those Returns were very imperfect. He must express a hope that the Government would give this most important question a very early consideration, otherwise we might be certain of the sacrifice of 500 more lives during the next six months. He did not wish to in any way embarrass the Government, but if they did not take some step to remedy the evil, he would feel it his duty to come forward with distinct propositions on the subject.
  Moved That there be laid before the House Copy of Board of Trade Circular to Railway Companies, dated February 1871, and the correspondence which followed thereon: Also for, Copy of correspondence between the Board of Trade and Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company with reference to legal proceedings in consequence of default of return of accidents.—(The Earl De La Warr.)
  THE EARL OF DUNMORE, in reply, said, he would refer the noble Earl who had moved for the Papers, to Returns already on their Lordships' Table which would show that the Board of Trade had urged on railway companies the duty of furnishing correct Returns of the accidents which occurred to their servants, and the Board had done all in their power to obtain these Returns. The inquiry had been instituted by the action of the Board of Trade itself, and was not owing to any pressure from without. Subject to certain verbal alterations which he would point out to his noble Friend, there would be no objection to the production of the Papers.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONhoped some step would be taken by the Board of Trade to deal more vigorously with the subject of railway management, for at present it had very little power in respect of railways. Some time ago an accident occurred in the South of Ireland, on the Cork and Bandon line, and the Inspector of the Board of Trade who inquired into it, made as strong a Report against the Company as could well have been drawn up. He reported that the permanent way was in an unsatisfactory condition, and that the engines were old and worn out. When he read that Report he inquired of the Board of Trade what measures it intended to adopt; but to his astonishment he learnt that all the Board could do was to lay before Parliament the Report of its Inspectors. This Report of the Inspector showed the necessity for immediate interference, yet all that the Board could do was to lay it before the House. A change was therefore necessary, and he hoped the subject would receive immediate attention.
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, he did not think their Lordships could conveniently enter into the large questions of the cause and the prevention of railway accidents on a Motion the terms of which would not lead anyone to suppose that it was intended to raise those questions. They were of the last importance, and when the Motion of which the noble Earl (Earl De La Warr) had given Notice came on, after Easter, noble Lords would, no doubt, be prepared to discuss them. He only rose to say a word or two in reference to the Returns made to the Board of Trade. The noble Earl who represented that Department in that House (the Earl of Dunmore) was quite right when he stated to their Lordships that the Board of Trade had made the greatest efforts to obtain the Returns from the railway companies; but there existed a great confusion in the public mind with respect to these Returns. There were two distinct classes of railway accidents—namely, accidents to the public as distinguished from accidents to the servants of railway companies. It could not be denied that up to this, the Returns with respect to the latter class of accidents had been incomplete, and therefore fallacious; but there was no reason whatever for supposing that we were not, and that we had not been for
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  years past, in possession of complete Returns as to accidents to the travelling public. There was not, until a very recent period, any Returns of accidents to railway servants—not, indeed, until the year before last, when he got an Act passed which made it compulsory on railway companies to furnish to the Board of Trade Returns of the deaths and injuries to their servants caused by railway accidents. He believed there was much exaggeration as to the imperfect character of the Returns furnished under that Act; but, at the same time, it was perfectly true that they did not contain the whole of the melancholy catalogue of those accidents. He believed, however, that the shortcoming of the companies in this respect was owing to the newness of the duty imposed upon them by the Act. The Board of Trade had done all they could to obtain complete Returns, but it was hardly to be expected that the thing could be done at once. In September last the Board of Trade instituted proceedings against the Lancashire and Yorkshire Company, which would have been continued, only that the Secretary came to the Board and apologized for the imperfect nature of the Returns, which, he said, was attributable solely to the newness of the Act, and the ignorance of the company's servants. He promised that every effort would be made in future to have the Returns full and complete. The Board of Trade had reason to think that the Returns made by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Company before those proceedings were more deficient than those issued by any other company. He mentioned this circumstance because some ingenious gentleman, writing in the Press, comparing those Returns with the figures which, from his own inquiries, was led to believe ought to have been given by the company, and then went on to assume that there was the same difference between the number of accidents furnished by every other company and the number which it ought to have returned, He believed, however, there was no ground for that conclusion. He would venture to suggest to the Board of Trade that there was another class of Return which the companies ought to be required to furnish with punctuality. After the Sittings of the Committee presided over by the noble Duke behind him (the Duke of Somerset) he introduced at the

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  end of last Session a short Bill, making it compulsory on railway companies to report the progress it made in the adoption of the block and interlocking systems. That Bill was passed, and he thought he might venture to say that when passing it the intention of the Legislature was to closely watch the progress of the companies, and ultimately to compel them to adopt those systems, if they did not of themselves gradually introduce them. It had boon shown that they could not be introduced on all lines in a week or a month, and therefore time was given to the companies; but he thought that if fair and rapid progress was not made in this respect, they ought to have recourse to compulsion. Regarding these Returns as of great importance, he hoped the Board of Trade would take care that they should be obtained and laid before the House as quickly as possible.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDexpressed his entire concurrence in what had fallen from the noble Lord opposite, that it would be inconvenient at present to enter upon this large subject of railway accidents, and the difficulties which had arisen, and would probably arise regarding the safe carrying of the public. The question was a larger one than the noble Earl who had brought it forward had led them to expect by his Notice on the Paper. He could endorse all that had been said in reference to the Board of Trade. Under the late and previous Governments the Board of Trade had done everything in its power to obtain accurate information on the subject of railway accidents, and he did not hesitate to promise that the present Board would take care that the important Returns required by the Act introduced by the noble Lord should be duly sent in by railway companies.
  Motion amended, and agreed to.
  Address for—
  "Copy of Board of Trade Circular to Railway Companies, dated November 1873, and the correspondence which followed thereon:—
  "Copy of correspondence between the Board of Trade and Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company with reference to legal proceedings in consequence of default of Retain of Accidents: And also,
  "Copy of correspondence between the Board of Trade and the Chamber of Commerce of the City of Edinburgh on the subject of certain Returns relative to Railway Accidents:"
  Ordered to be laid before the House.

RAILWAYS.

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEEN, in moving for Returns on the 1st of May of the number of persons employed on each of the railways of the United Kingdom (classified according to the nature of the work performed by them), said, those Returns, in addition to the Returns which the companies were already bound to furnish, would show the proportion between the number of railway servants injured and the total number employed. It might be said, by way of objection, that the publication of such Returns and of the comparisons of the two classes of figures, would be an interference between employers and employed. But who were the employers of railway servants? Their work was of such a nature that they were brought into direct communication with the public, and might be regarded in one sense as public servants. At all events, if they made any mistake leading to serious results, they would soon discover that they had two masters, for the railway companies would dismiss them, and the public would punish them for their neglect. In alluding to this aspect of the matter, he thought it right to say that he would be the last to come forward as a reckless declaimer against railway Directors. He believed that the more one became acquainted with the working and management of railway's, the more he would be able to appreciate the difficulties which railway Directors had to contend with in conducting the business of a railway. But the same acquaintance with the practical working of a railway which would reveal the difficulties which the Directors had to encounter would also reveal the difficulties which railway servants had to meet and overcome in the discharge of their duty—difficulties, too, which arose from no fault of their own. If the Returns for which he moved were granted, he indulged a hope that the information which they would afford might ultimately be of benefit to railway servants, and that they might also be useful in a wider sense as a contribution—although a humble one—towards the adjustment of certain large questions to which public attention was now being directed, among others the question of compensation to injured railway employés. In the discussion, too, of the still larger question

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  as to the future management of railways, there could be no doubt that the number of persons employed upon them would be an important, as it had often been a disputed, point.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsuggested that the Return should have reference to the 31st of December last.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEENassented.
  Motion amended, and agreed to.
  Returns of the number of persons employed on the 31st of December last on each of the Railways of the United Kingdom (classified according to the nature of the work performed by them).
  Ordered to be laid before the House.
  House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock to Thursday next, half-past Tcn o'clock.