Lords Sitting of 29 June 1874

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Act (1863) Amendment * (133).
Committee—Report—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (No. 2) * (108).
Third Reading—Juries (Ireland) * (131); Militia Law Amendment * (110), and passed.

MR. LEONARD EDMUNDS.

  PROCEEDING ON PETITION VACATED.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords on this day week, the 22nd, I presented a Petition from Mr. Leonard Edmunds, and I gave Notice that to-day I would move that it be referred to the Select Committee on the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and the Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. Recently, since then, I received an intimation from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that the Petition is out of Order, as referring to a debate of last Session, and affects the Privilege of your Lordships' House, as referring to a Member of this House. I need not say for myself, my Lords, that had I been aware of this—and being only a young Member of your Lordships' House, I was not aware of it—I would not have presented the Petition; and Mr. Edmunds authorizes me to say that if he had known it would be out of Order as presented, he

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  would have drawn it in another form. I now beg to ask leave to withdraw the Petition.
  The House being informed that the said Petition, presented on Monday last, and ordered to lie on the Table, contains remarks animadverting on statements made in a former debate in this House: Ordered that the said proceeding be vacated.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT.

  QUESTION.
  LORD HAMPTONsaid, he had given Notice to ash his noble Friend the President of the Council certain Questions relating to the Education Department. While under the Endowed Schools Act and the schemes drawn up by the Endowed Schools Commissioners a good deal had been done for middle-class education, so far as extending the benefits of the schools themselves, little or nothing had been done in the way of training teachers for those schools. This was a matter of great importance. In various parts of England there were training colleges in which teachers were prepared for the schools of the humbler classes. This was as it should be; but the system ought to be extended upwards. The College of Preceptors had made a representation on this subject. He was not aware that anything like a system for providing trained teachers for the middle classes existed. The first Question therefore he had to ask his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council was, whether he intend to take any measures founded on the representations submitted to him by the deputation from the College of Preceptors, on the 16th of April, with a view to the better and more professional training of teachers for upper and middle class schools? Their Lordships had no doubt read a statement reported to have been made by Lord Sandon with respect to the irregular attendance of children in inspected schools. That statement was well calculated to excite the attention of the country. He therefore begged to ask his noble Friend whether he confirmed the statement reported to have been made by the Vice President of the Council to the following effect:—
  "Now, as to attendance. Of the 800,000 infants, 400,000 had not attended half a-year—viz., the 250 times necessary to get the grant; of the 1,400,000 between seven and thirteen, 500,000 had not attended half a-year, or the 250 attendances necessary for the grant. Thus, out of 2,200,000 on the books, 900,000 had not
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  attended for even half a-year. If the attendance was so bad in the inspected schools, what was it likely to be in the non-inspected schools. This irregular attendance of the children was the most important fact in the educational survey of the country, and it explained the poor results that were obtained from our immense expenditure."
  If his noble Friend could confirm that statement he would ask further, whether the Education Department had in contemplation any measures intended to correct the serious evil of irregular attendance?
  EARL NELSONsaid, that he presided the other day at a rather important meeting of school teachers and managers of Church of England schools, and in a discussion on the question of compulsory attendance in schools it was stated, that in London and elsewhere there was very great difficulty in bringing compulsion to bear in regard to scholars, and that when the children were got into the schools there was still greater difficulty in securing their continuous attendance. It was further stated that there was less difficulty in obtaining the attendance in denominational schools that were not compulsory than in compulsion schools—it was said that the absences in the latter exceeded by 5 per cent those in the former in which no compulsion was used, and the statement was illustrated by references to London and Wigan. It was said that there were two classes who succeeded in defying the compulsory orders—the very poor and migratory who evaded the law, and the others rich colliers who paid the fines and thought nothing of them. He himself believed that the regular attendance of children at the schools could only be brought about by combination between managers and those interested in education in each particular district; and the course pursued by Messrs. Parkins and Gotto, who employed a great number of boys, in engaging the boys, not directly from their parents, but from the schools, would tend to the same beneficial end.
  The DUKE OF RICIIMONDsaid, he was not prepared to go into the points raised by the observations of the noble Earl who had just spoken, because he had had no Notice of them. In reply to the first Question of his noble Friend (Lord Hampton), he had to say that he was not prepared with any measure founded on the representations submitted to him by the deputation from the College of Preceptors. He quite recognized the

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  importance of having well-trained masters not for the lower, or the middle, or the upper class schools exclusively, but for all schools of whatever class, and if they wanted properly trained masters they must have properly trained teachers. As he understood the gentlemen who composed the deputation, they suggested a system of registration and a provision that no person who had not passed a certain examination and whose name was not on the register should be allowed to teach. He was not prepared to carry out that plan, which he thought was somewhat crude. He did not believe the country was prepared for such coercive measures in respect to schoolmasters. In reply to his noble Friend's second Question, he had to state that his noble Friend (Viscount Sandon) was quite correctly reported; and he (the Duke of Richmond) had arrived at the same conclusion as his noble Friend, and thought the state of things described by him was anything but satisfactory. For some time past the Department had been anxiously looking to it in connection with the various Acts which provided for the sending of children to school. His noble Friend was aware that the subject of compulsion was dealt with by the Factory Acts, the Agricultural Children's Act, which was passed last year, and the measure which provided that Boards of Guardians who gave out-door relief should see that the children receiving it were sent to school; and, lastly, there was the Act establishing the School Board System. The Department was watching with great anxiety the working and development of these several Acts of Parliament. He was sure his noble Friend (Lord Hampton) must know that the question of compulsion was a difficult one to deal with, and he did not think the Government ought to further interfere with it by way of legislation unless they were prepared with a well-digested scheme. He was aware that he was giving an unsatisfactory answer to his noble Friend so far as legislative measures were concerned; but he would repeat that the subject of attendance at schools occupied the attention of the Department, who were anxious that the education of the country should be carried out in the most thorough and efficient manner.
  LORD LYTTELTONsaid, he was in favour of a system of training colleges
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  for the teachers of middle-class schools, and he hoped the subject would engage the attention of the Government and of those who were to succeed him and his Colleagues as Endowed Schools Commissioners. The subject had not escaped the attention of the present Commissioners; but the difficulty in the way of their doing anything in that direction had been great. The Report of the Commission which led to the appointment of the Endowed Schools Commission did not express any distinct view on this subject. It was no doubt within the scope of the Endowed Schools Act that training colleges should be established for middle class schools; but the Commissioners found it practically impossible to divert endowments from their present local application to what was a national purpose, and, consequently, they had no fund for the establishment of such colleges. He would, however, strongly recommend their successors on the Commission and the Government to keep the object in view. On the other point, he wished to express his assent to the principle of compulsion, which he believed would be best applied in an indirect form.
  LORD LAWRENCEsaid, that of 67,000 children on the books of the London School Board, 47,000, or 70 per cent. attended. That, he thought, was a very fair attendance, and it had been brought about by looking up the children and bringing pressure to bear on the parents.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, 'till to-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.