HL Deb 09 June 1874 vol 219 cc1264-8

House again in Committee on Re-Commitment.

EARL NELSON

, referring to the insertion of the words "security for costs having been given," in Clause 8—a new clause agreed to on the Motion of the Earl of Shaftesbury—said, he intended that the security to be given should be not less than £100; his object being to secure that the appeal should be bonâ fide.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

said, the clause could be amended on the bringing up of the Report.

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

moved, after Clause 16, to insert— ("In proceedings under this Act, the bishop or the judge may, if he deem it light, order the plaintiff to give security for costs in such an amount as he may deem expedient; and until such security he given the proceedings shall be stayed. In proceedings under this Act, the costs shall abide the final judgment, except otherwise directed by the court which pronounces judgment; and such costs shall be taxed and levied in the mode prescribed. If it appear that any plaintiff has made any groundless or frivolous claim or complaint, or that any defendant has set up any groundless or frivolous defence, the court may order such plaintiff or defendant to pay, as between attorney and client, the whole or any part of the costs occasioned by making such groundless or frivolous claim or complaint, or setting up such groundless or frivolous defence (as the case may be); and such costs shall be taxed in the mode prescribed.")

Motion (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Clause 17 (Monition to be in force pending an appeal unless the bishop or court of appeal shall otherwise order).

THE MARQUESS OF BATH

proposed to insert the words—" of the Court of Appeal of the Province."

After some discussion, of the course of legal proceeding in enforcing decrees by the Courts of Law, of a very technical character—

Clause struck out.

Clause 18 (Return by incumbent).

THE MARQUESS OF BATH

said, the clause required the incumbent to make a return to the Bishop, stating whether he had duly complied with the terms of the monition, and if so, in what manner. This could not but be highly mortifying to the incumbent; and he should propose that the return should be made to the Judge. This would be quite as effectual, and would spare the incumbents the degradation of writing.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

said, it might not have occurred to the noble Marquess that the requirement of the return to be made to the Judge, instead of the Bishop might have sharper consequences to the incumbent.

After short conversation, clause struck out.

Clause 19 (Inhibition of incumbent) agreed to, with Amendments.

Clause 20 (Cathedrals).

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

proposed to postpone the consideration of this clause—directing that when the church in reference to which a representation is made is a cathedral church the representation shall be made by the dean, precentor, chancellor, or treasurer of such church, or by one of the canons residentiary, prebendaries or honorary canon—until the Report, when he would bring it up in an amended form.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

objected to any such course being pursued. The Forms of the House afforded every opportunity for the minutest criticism of the clause in Committee, and he did not see what object was to be gained by deferring the consideration of the question until the Report. The Bishops were claiming a jurisdiction over the cathedrals which had not been practically exercised for the last 200 years.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

said, it had been suggested that it had not been customary to require a faculty for the alteration of buildings in cathedrals, but that the original Bill would make those faculties absolutely requisite in regard to cathedrals. He had therefore promised to introduce a provision that would modify that objection. There was, however, a great deal more to be said now for retaining cathedrals in the Bill since it had been amended by the proposals of the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury), and the objections which were made to the Bishops exercising their authority over cathedrals did not apply to the Judge. He wished the clause to be struck out now with a view to bringing it up in another shape on the Report—especially as he had given Notice of his intention to move an. Amendment with respect to faculties.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

objected to the proposed method of proceeding very much as a matter of principle. That Bill required very minute verbal sifting, a process which could not be satisfactorily applied to it by putting off that question till the Report.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND

observed that the course proposed to be taken by the most rev. Primate was not at all unusual; and he thought it not quite convenient to deal with that clause on the present occasion. The Forms of the House required them to negative the clause and when, at the next stage, the contemplated new Clause was proposed no doubt it would receive that minute verbal sifting of which his noble Friend had spoken.

EARL GRANVILLE

recommended the postponement of the clause.

THE MARQUESS OF BATH

thought it was the practice not to defer a clause till the Report except where the Committee had decided on the substance of the Amendment which it was intended at the next stage to make in it. ("No!") If the Bishop was not to have any more authority over the cathedral than he possessed at present, there might be no difficulty in assenting to omit the clause now and allow another one to be brought up on the Report.

After some further conversation,

Clause struck out.

Clause 21 (Faculty not necessary in certain cases).

The Clause provides that it shall not be necessary to obtain a faculty from the ordinary in order lawfully to obey any monition issued under this Act, and that if the Bishop shall direct in any monition that a faculty shall be applied for, such fees only shall be paid for it as may be directed by the rules and orders.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

moved to add a proviso— That a faculty shall, on application, be granted gratuitously in respect of any ornaments or furniture, not being contrary to law, existing in any church at the time of the passing of this Act.

Sometimes the taking out of these faculties cost as much as £5.

LORD SELBORNE

thought the proposal a reasonable one.

Proviso agreed to.

Clause agreed to, with the Amendment.

Clause 22 (Service of Notices) agreed to.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORK

moved, after Clause 22, to insert a new Clause:— (Substitute for Bishop in case of illness). If any bishop shall be unable from illness to discharge any of the duties imposed upon him by this Act in regard to any representation, the archbishop of the province shall act in the place of such bishop in all matters thereafter arising in relation to such representation, and if any archbishop shall be unable from illness to discharge any of the duties imposed upon him by this Act in regard to any representation, Her Majesty may, by her sign manual, appoint an archbishop or bishop to act in the place of such archbishop in all matters thereafter arising in relation to such representation.

After a few words from Earl NELSON and Lord SELBORNE,

Clause agreed to and added to the Bill.

Clause 23 (Limitation of proceedings against incumbent).

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

moved that the Chairman report Progress, which was agreed to.

House to be again in Committee (on Recommitment) on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. No. 96.

House adjourned at Twelve o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.