Lords Sitting of 23 July 1874

MENUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Public; Health (Ireland) * (195); Alderney Harbour * (196); Education Department Orders* (197).
Second Reading—Infanticide (184); Revising Barristers (Payment) * (175); Mersey Channels* (182); Conveyancing and Land Transfer (Scotland) * (186).
Committee—Intoxicating Liquors (Ireland) (No. 2) * (174).
Committee—Report—Rating (158); County of Hertford and Liberty of St. Alban* (167); Customs (Isle of Man)* (165); Industrial and Reformatory Schools* (180).
Third Reading—Hosiery Manufacture (Wages) * (163), and passed.

H.R.H. PRINCE LEOPOLD.

  THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE.
  Order of the Day for taking into consideration Her Majesty's Most Gracious Message of Monday last, read.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: My Lords, I rise for the purpose of asking your Lordships to agree that an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty on the subject of the Message which Her Majesty was graciously pleased to send down to your Lordships on Monday last. My Lords, it has often been my fate—like most of those who have been placed in the position which I now
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  hold—to differ from noble Lords on both sides of the House in the various discussions in which from time to time we have taken part; but speaking for myself individually, I have every reason to be thankful for the kind consideration which on all occasions when I have had to address your Lordships, I have received not only from my own political Friends, but from all on whatever side of the House they may sit. My Lords, it is always exceedingly gratifying to me when an occasion presents itself which gives me the opportunity of addressing your Lordships, as I now do, upon a topic which I am sure will receive the unanimous assent of your Lordships, and elicit from every one of your Lordships the mark of sympathy which I have not the least doubt will be manifested on this occasion. These occasions arise, my Lords, when your Lordships are enabled to give expression to those sentiments which animate the whole House—sentiments of loyalty to the Monarchy, of attachment to the Dynasty under which this country has prospered and achieved a position to which no other country has arrived, and of personal devotion to the Sovereign under whose rule we have the happy privilege to live. My Lords, this is one of those eases; and I venture to hope that your Lordships will seize this opportunity of thanking Her Majesty for the Message which She has been graciously pleased to deliver to your Lordships, and of accompanying those thanks with the assurance of loyalty which has always been the characteristic of your Lordships' House. My Lords, the young Prince, the subject of the Message, and of the Resolution which I shall have the honour to propose to your Lordships, did not have the advantage, on account of his youth, of the personal example of his illustrious Father; but I think I may assert that he has been brought up in a manner in every way calculated to cause him to emulate and follow the noble example which has been carefully set before him. My Lords, the assiduity which His Royal Highness has shown in all the departments of study in which he has been occupied gives the assurance that he will fit himself to take that distinguished position in this country to which his birth entitles him; and we may venture to hope, from what we hear, that His Royal Highness will attain that large

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  share of popularity which has fallen to the lot of the other Princes of his illustrious House. My Lords, I think it would be unnecessary for me to trespass longer on your attention, and I therefore beg to move the following Resolution:—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to return to Her Majesty the Thanks of this House for Her most gracious Message informing this House that Her Majesty, being desirous of making competent provision for the honourable support and maintenance of her fourth son, Prince Leopold George Duncan Albert, on his coming of age, relics upon the attachment of the House of Lords to concur in the adoption of such measures as may be suitable to the occasion, and to assure Her Majesty that this House, desirous of availing itself of every opportunity to manifest its dutiful attachment to Her Majesty's Royal Person and Family, will cheerfully concur in all such measures as shall be necessary and proper for giving effect to the object of Her Majesty's most gracious Message."
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I beg to express my entire concurrence in all that has fallen from the noble Duke, I am sure that the Motion with which he has concluded will meet with unanimous concurrence in your Lordships' House. Some of your Lordships are probably better acquainted than others with His Royal Highness Prince Leopold. As the representative of the late Government in your Lordships' House, it was my privilege to have a closer personal acquaintance with him than I might, perhaps, otherwise have enjoyed, and I venture to say that there are very few young men of his age who have qualified their natural abilities with greater assiduity than he has done. I am sure your Lordships are all aware of the infinite pains bestowed upon his training, and that you will rejoice to hear of the reputation which he has already achieved in the University to which he now belongs. My Lords, with the greatest pleasure I second this Motion.
  Motion agreed to.
  Then an humble Address of thanks and concurrence ordered nemine dissentiente to be presented to Her Majesty thereupon: The said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

INFANTICIDE BILL.—(No. 184.)
(The Lord Colchester.)
INFANTICIDE BILL.—(No. 184.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD COLCHESTER, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that under the existing law, if a woman was charged with having wilfully caused the death of her child during or immediately after its birth, she must either be found guilty of murder or acquitted. The consequence was that juries were frequently unwilling to return a verdict of "Wilful Murder" in cases in which there could be no doubt that women had caused the death of their children on the ground that there was no positive proof that the child was born alive. This Bill, in consequence, proposed to make the infliction of serious bodily harm, when the child subsequently died, a felony, punishable with penal servitude for any term not exceeding 10 years, or with imprisonment for any term not exceeding two years. By clause 4, if a woman was acquitted of the murder of her child, the jury might find her guilty of the felony mentioned in this Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Colchester.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that without stating his objection to the principle of the Bill, he must take exception to the wording. If a woman should "wilfully cause" the death of her child after its birth, he did not see how that could be anything but murder.
  LORD PENZANCEsaid, he must express his concurrence with his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack.
  LORD REDESDALEhad a great objection on principle to such Bills as this. Killing a child was as much murder as killing a grown-up person. The effect of a Bill of this kind would be to make people think it was not murder if the child was killed at the time of birth or just after it, and the consequence would be an encouragement to child murder, and not a repression of it.
  LORD SELBORNEalso had an objection to a special verdict of the kind contemplated by this Bill. He could not but think there would be much difficulty in such a verdict in a criminal

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  case. He very much doubted the wisdom of this legislation, but he was unwilling to reject the Bill, as it had received the assent of the other House of Parliament.
  On Question? Resolved in the Affirmative.
  Bill read 2a accordingly.

RATING BILL.—(No. 158.)
(The Lord President.)
RATING BILL.—(No. 158.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Valuation and rating of rights of shooting. &c.).
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, that the clause provided that in cases where the owner let a farm and reserved to himself the shooting over it, the Assessment Committee should rate that farm as if the right of sporting was unsevered from it, and the tenant should have a deduction in the assessment to the amount of the value of the right of "sporting." It seemed to him impossible that the clause could be workable in its present form. There was no criterion of the monetary value of the privilege of shooting over a particular farm, and therefore it was impossible to rate it. The right of shooting over 2,000 acres in a particular county might be very valuable, but the right of shooting over only 200 acres of those 2,000 might be worthless. The majority of tenant-farmers would pay no additional rent for the right of shooting over their land. The proper way to assess such a farm as that contemplated by the clause, was to assess it at its highest agricultural value, and he should move an Amendment to that effect.
  An Amendment moved after ("estimated") to insert the words ("at its highest agricultural value.")—(The Marquess of Bath.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, it would have been more convenient if his noble Friend had given Notice of an Amendment which, if adopted, would practically defeat the Bill. He understood his noble Friend to say, on the second reading, that he approved the principle of the Bill; but the words he
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  now proposed to insert could not be introduced in a rating clause which had come up from the Commons.
  LORD HAMPTONconcurred with his noble Friend (the Marquess of Bath) in thinking the clause unworkable. He thought the proposition itself was objectionable, and that his noble Friend the Lord President ought to consider whether he should not withdraw the clause altogether.
  LORD PENRHYNsaid, that having acted as Chairman of an Assessment Committee for a long time, he thought there would be great difficulty in carrying this clause into operation. The clause held out a premium to the Assessment Committees to put the highest value upon game, because the higher the assessment for game the greater deduction there would be from the rent of the tenants.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the noble Marquess proposed to alter the clause by inserting certain words; but the noble Lord (Lord Hampton) opposed the principle of the clause. But that was not the question before the Committee. The Committee had already decided it; because they had agreed to Clause 3, and thereby affirmed that it was expedient to extend the assessment to the right of sporting, when it was severed from the occupation of land. As to the Amendment proposed by the noble Marquess, it was impossible, consistently with the relations which prevailed between their Lordships' House and the House of Commons, that their Lordships should pick and choose out the subjects of assessment in a rating Bill. For that reason the proposition was one to which their Lordships should not accede. But supposing it to be adopted, it would make the Bill infinitely more injurious than, according to the noble Marquess, it was at present; because, first, the Assessment Committee would assess the farm at its highest agricultural value; and then they could not stop there, for the words "as if the rights of sporting were not severed" would remain in the clause, and that right would have to be assessed. The result would be that the assessment would be at the highest agricultural value, plus an assessment on account of game, which deteriorated the agricultural value of the farm.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he agreed to the clause as it stood; but contended

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  that the House had a right to reject it, or any part of it, if they should think fit to do so. He had been chairman of the Board of Guardians for some years, and occasionally attended an Assessment Committee, and he did not anticipate so much difficulty as some noble Lords seemed to feel in carrying out the clause.
  LORD HENNIKERexpressed a hope that the Government would withdraw the clause; but if they did not, then that the noble Marquess would proceed to a division.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDpointed out that where an owner of land was also the occupier, he was at present without doubt liable to be assessed for the right of sporting; that where an owner was also the occupier and he let the right of sporting, he was assessable for the right of sporting; but where he was owner and not occupier, but reserved the light of sporting, there was no assessment; and it was to meet that case that this clause had been inserted in the Bill. The clause had undergone very great consideration both in the last and present Sessions of Parliament, being practically the same clause as was included in the Bill of the late Government. It would be impossible for him, if he withdrew the clause, to bring forward another that would be more satisfactory on that subject. What would be the position of that House in the opinion of the other House of Parliament and the country if they were to deal with that clause in the manner which had been suggested? The House of Commons had agreed that woods hitherto not in-eluded within the area of rateability should henceforth be assessed to rates, and their Lordships had adopted that proposal. The same was the case with regard to mines; not a word had been said in their Lordships' House against assessing mines, and the Bill as far as related to mines and woods would go down to the other House untouched. Would it not, therefore, be said in the country—"Here is a House composed of noble Lords, many of whom are attached to sporting, and the moment you touch that which affects the right of sporting which they enjoy, they immediately cry out and wish to have sporting taken out of the Bill." It would be unfortunate if their Lordships, when dealing with several descriptions of property hitherto exempted from rating, were to
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  strike out of the measure the particular description with which they were thought to be more intimately connected. He could not, therefore, withdraw the clause, and he regretted that he would be compelled to say "Not content" to the Motion of the noble Marquess.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHquite saw the difficulty which the noble Duke had pointed out, and would regret very much that anything should happen that was injurious to the Bill. The other subsections of the clause were exceedingly good; but he objected to the clause as it now stood because it imposed on the Assessment Committee a duty which they could not possibly discharge—namely, to declare the rateable value of a thing which practically did not exist, or which practically had no rateable value. The land was of value to the tenant for agricultural purposes, and the right of sporting over the land was of value to the sportsman for sporting purposes; but the great body of the tenant-farmers of England would not be disposed to give anything for the right of sporting over the land.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDremarked that if an Assessment Committee were called upon to assess the rateable value of that which had no such value, there would be no rating or assessment at all in the case supposed.
  On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 15; Not-Contents 51: Majority 36.
  Resolved in the Negative.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHpointed out that in the Bill of last Session there was a sub-section giving the power of appeal to the Courts of Quarter Sessions; but there was no such provision in the present Bill.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, the provision in question was not necessary. That was not a taxing Bill, and after it had passed there would be the same right of appeal that existed at the present time.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.

POST OFFICE—MAILS IN THE NORTH OF SCOTLAND.—QUESTION.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLANDrose to ask Her Majesty's Government, Why the Post Office have discontinued the mail trains which had hitherto run from Bonar Bridge to Helmsdale, in Sutherland; and why they decline to accept the service of mail trains from the latter place by the new railway about to open to Wick and Thurso in Caithness, which completes the great system of through communication from London to the extreme North of Scotland; and what security the Post Office offer for the regular transmission and safety of the mails if sent as ordinary luggage; and, in case there be any difference of opinion as to terms, why the Post Office will not consent to refer the question to arbitration in the manner provided by the Legislature? The noble Duke said great inconvenience and disappointment had been felt in the North of Scotland over a large agricultural district, containing a population of some 20,000 persons, many of whom were in poor circumstances, at finding the postal facilities which previously existed reduced instead of increased. For some time they had hoped and believed that when the new railway was opened they would have got their letters across the country by a direct route, which would have saved five hours, and enabled them to answer by return of post. But they were miserably disappointed to find that the Post Office did not intend to give them any further facilities. He supposed the Post Office had come to that determination because they considered it would not pay. The consequence would be that there would be three blank days in a week, so far as postal service was concerned, and no train on Sunday. The inconvenience would be immense. He thought that perhaps the Postmaster General, being new to his office, had hardly become aware of the great inconvenience that arose from the present arrangement. He hoped, however, that Her Majesty's Government would feel the great injustice that had been done, and would remember that the Post Office was a huge monopoly, and it ought to treat the poor districts with the same justice as the rich.
THE EARL OF BRADFORD, in reply, said, he hoped and believed that his
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noble Friend had somewhat exaggerated the inconvenience that would result from the alteration. The fact was, that the contract for the conveyance of the mails in that district was purposely made to expire at the time this extension of the railway took place, in order to give the Postmaster General an opportunity of renewing the contract, or making some other arrangement which might be to the advantage of postal communication in the district. There was no reason why the mail service should not be safely conducted by the ordinary trains of the railway referred to. The Postmaster General did not decline to entertain proposals from the railway company for the transmission of the mails from Wick to Thurso. If no satisfactory understanding could be come to between the Post Office and the owners of the railway, the Postmaster General was quite willing to refer the matter to arbitration in the usual manner.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT ORDERS BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to declare the validity of Orders of the Education Department with respect to United Schools Districts, and to make "better provision with respect to such Orders—Was presented by The LORD PRESIDENT; read 1a. (No. 197.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Two o'clock.