Lords Sitting of 28 April 1874

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Bayleigh, after the death of his father.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Church Patronage, Earl Stanhope added.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Colonial Clergy* (43); Marriages Legalization (St. John the Evangelist's Chapel in the Parish of Shus-tock) * (45); Hertford College, Oxford* (46).
Committee—Report—Gas Orders Confirmation* (25).
Withdrawn—Magdalen Hall Property* (3).

ASHANTEE WAR—GRANT TO THE FORCES.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEasked, If it is the intention of Her Majesty's Ministers to recommend that a grant of some kind be given to the Forces employed on the Gold Coast against the Ashantees? Their Lordships were aware that Sir Garnet Wolseley had been voted a grant of £25,000. with honours, and honours and rewards of various kinds had been given to the Officers; but he did not know that anything was to be given to the Men but medals. He had heard they were to have medals. He believed, however, it was not unusual that a grant of money should be given to men engaged on a service like the Ashantee Expedition. This was not an ordinary war. True, the men were on extra pay—they had climate pay, field allowances, and other additional remuneration; but those extras were only allowed as payments by the day, and the number of days the war lasted was but
1256
few. The men would have been better off if they had been paid by the job—for this was an important job well executed. If he was not mistaken, the men engaged in the Chinese War and the Abyssinian Expedition were on India batta, which pay made a great difference in the soldier's favour. It must be remembered that, in the Ashantee Expedition, the soldiers not only fought, but they volunteered to carry stores and ammunition—a thing not in the ordinary course of duty. He did not mean to say that troops ought not to do anything they were required to do; but there ought to be a recognition of extra service cheerfully performed. We had got a considerable amount of gold out of King Coffee, and a promise of more, and he thought that, in equity, a portion of this at least belonged to the troops.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: My Lords, I do not think it necessary for me on this occasion to bear fresh testimony to the value of the services rendered by the troops engaged in the Ashantee Expedition. Both Houses of Parliament have already expressed themselves on the subject in a manner that can leave no doubt as to what those views are, I will not, therefore, follow the noble Earl in the eulogy passed by him upon the officers and men engaged. The question of prize money is one of a very difficult character to deal with, and great care and prudence are required to avoid establishing an unwise or dangerous precedent in connection with it. I have, however, to inform the noble Earl that the conclusion which Her Majesty's Government have come to in the matter is this—that as between Her Majesty and the King of Ashantee the value of the property that was handed to Sir Garnet Wolseley before the Treaty, is to be allowed as part payment of the indemnity which was guaranteed by the Treaty afterwards signed; but as between Her Majesty and the troops, in consideration of the very peculiar circumstances under which the money was extracted from the King, and of the fact that it was mainly owing to the pressure of the troops that it was obtained, it is intended, with the consent of the other House of Parliament, that that money shall be considered as prize.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he wished to supplement the statement

1257
of his noble Friend by a few words having reference to one portion of the forces. Their Lordships would recollect that not only was there an expedition acting under the direct command of Sir Garnet Wolseley, composed of regular troops, but there was also a colonial expedition, acting under Captain Glover, on Sir Garnet's flank to the eastward. He could only say with respect to the commander and officers of the colonial expedition that their hardships and trials were not less than those of the officers in the other expedition, and their courage, patience, and perseverance were not less. All of them sustained a considerable loss of property and health, and all of them were exposed to the most grievous of all trials to which officers could be exposed—their troops were untrustworthy, and liable at any moment to show cowardice and desert. That was the position in which the volunteer officers were placed, and they deserved the highest thanks. It was certain that, even under these conditions, Captain Glover's movements had contributed in no slight degree to the ultimate success of the campaign. He could not say how far those gentlemen would come within the privileged circle his noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond) spoke of. He could not say whether they were entitled to share in the prize—their case would be judged by the ordinary rules of the service—but he was afraid there was no precedent for granting them anything out of the Imperial funds; but he thought it would not be regarded as unreasonable that the colony to which they had rendered such service should be called on for a moderate allowance—he would not say by way of compensation for the dangers to which they had been exposed, but by way of compensation for losses that they had personally sustained. Her Majesty had been pleased to signify her gracious approval of the services of those officers; and as this was a convenient time, he might state the different honours which Her Majesty would confer upon them. Captain Glover would receive the Grand Cross of the Order of St. Michael and St. George, which was the highest decoration of the colonial Order. Mr. Goldsworthy, the second in command; Captain Sartorius, who had made a ride which was now historical: Dr. Rowe, who performed services not very congenial to
1258
the medical profession; Lieutenant Barnard, and Mr. Blissett would receive the Companionship of the Order. In addition, there were honours for other officers who served on the Coast prior to Sir Garnet Wolseley's landing. Colonel Festing, C.B., had already received a Knight Companionship of the Order; and Colonel Harley. C.B., Captain Fremantle, R.N., and Major Helden would receive Companionships. All these gallant officers had worthily obtained their honours, and he hoped they might live long to enjoy them.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he was glad to hear of these honours, and that Her Majesty's Government proposed that a portion of the gold obtained should be given as prize-money. He should further be glad if his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies should see his way to obtain a grant out of the funds of the colony to Captain Glover and the officers who had volunteered to serve on his expedition. He thought, however, that his noble Friend the Colonial Secretary was scarcely just to Captain Glover's forces when he spoke of them as utterly untrustworthy. Such a description applied with truth to the Fantees; but the Houssas were a very valuable body of troops. He was the more anxious that no misapprehension should exist on the point, because, without giving any opinion as to what measures might be adopted in the future, this was the native body on which probably we should have to rely. He hoped their Lordships would agree with him that it was most desirable there should be a full recognition of the services of the Houssas, and that, as regarded Captain Glover's expedition, they should be excepted from the just censure which the noble Earl had passed on the cowardly Natives who had deserted the gallant officers. "With respect to Colonel Harley, it ought to be remembered that he had been placed in a most exceptional and trying position. One could scarcely conceive a graver responsibility than that which devolved upon him during the terrible sickness from which hardly anyone escaped. Whatever opinions might be entertained as to the causes of the war, everyone would agree that Colonel Harley had performed his duties most gallantly, and that he was entitled to some recognition of his services.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT—THE VOLUNTARY SYSTEM.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether they will take into consideration the existing regulations and, if necessary, the Elementary Education Act, with a view to facilitate the return to a voluntary system in rural districts which have tried the School Board system and found it to fail, and to modify the requirements as regards school accommodation in districts where it can be shown that the population has diminished since the last Census and still tends to decrease?
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, with regard to the first part of the Question, Her Majesty's Government were not in a position, as at present advised, to recommend an alteration of the Elementary Education Act in the manner pointed out by the noble Viscount. When a School Board was appointed it became a Corporation, and there would therefore be some difficulty in dissolving it. With regard to the second part of the Question, he had found that with respect to school accommodation, where it had been shown that the population had diminished since the last Census, and when representations to that effect were made to the Government, the practice of the Goverment from time to time had been to modify the requirements they had thought it necessary to exact, so as to meet the altered circumstances of the case.

OWNERS OF LANDS, &c.—ENGLAND—THE RETURNS.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT HALIFAXasked the Lord President, When the Return of the owners of land in England, already made with respect to Scotland, was likely to be presented?
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he must give every praise to the energy shown in the preparation of the Return of owners of land in Scotland. Every effort was being made to make the Returns complete as regarded England within a short period. He was not at present able to state when it would be completed; but in justice to the officers of the Department with whom the preparation of the Return rested, he ought to say that the number of unions in this country was larger than in Scotland,
1260
upwards of 15,000 parishes having to be dealt with. Some of the valuation lists sent in were so incorrect that it had been found necessary to send upwards of 5,000 back for revision, and he regretted to say that of that number about 1,000 had not been returned to the Department. If he mistook not, these Returns were paid for, but there was no compulsion in the matter; and therefore it might be necessary to make a Motion in that House on the subject, in order to make those who did not complete the Returns subject to the pains and penalties attending those persons who did not obey the Orders of that House. He might add that this Return was by far the most troublesome the Department had been called upon to prepare.

OWNERS OF LANDS, &c.—ENGLAND—THE RETURNS.—QUESTION.
  COLONIAL CLERGY BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill respecting Colonial and other Clergy—Was presented by The Lord BLACHFORD: read 1a. (No. 43.)
  MARRIAGES LEGALIZATION (ST. JOHN THE EVANGELIST'S CHAPEL IN THE PARISH OF SHUSTOCK) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to render valid Marriages heretofore solemnized in the Chapel of Ease called St. John the Evangelist at Bentley in the parish of Shustock in the county of Warwick—Was presented by The Bishop of LONDON; read 1a. (No. 45.)

  HERTFORD COLLEGE, OXFORD, BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for dissolving Magdalen Hall in the University of Oxford, and for incorporating the Principal, Fellows, and Scholars of Hertford College; and for vesting in such College the lands and other property now held in trust for the benefit of Magdalen Hall—Was presented by The Marquess of SALISBURY: read 1a, (No. 46.)
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.