Lords Sitting of 20 May 1873

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Earl of Zetland, after the death of his uncle; The Lord Stewart of Garlies (Earl of Galloway), after the death of his father.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Peace Preservation (Ireland)* (123); County Authorities (Loans)* (124).
Second Reading—Sites for Places of Religious Worship (61); Fairs (97); East India Loan* (109).
Select Committee—Pollution of Rivers* (59), nominated.
Committee—Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Order Confirmation* (95); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation* (96).
Committee—Report—Australian Colonies (Customs Duties) (91); Marriages Legalization, St. John's Chapel, Eton* (99); Superannuation Act Amendment* (113).
Report—Registration of Births and Deaths* (100).
Third Reading—Gretton Chapel Marriages Legalization* (77), and passed.

SITES FOR PLACES OF WORSHIP BILL.
(The Lord Hatherley.)

(NO. 61.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
LORD HATHERLEY,in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, it was one which had come up from the Commons. The object of the Bill was simply to enable owners of property, and especially owners having a limited interest, to make over plots of ground not exceeding an acre in extent as sites for places of public worship. He had promised to take charge of the Bill up to the stage of second reading, and his noble and learned Friend beside him (Lord Romilly) had promised him his assistance in making certain alterations which they thought the clauses required, which alterations might be adopted in Committee.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Lord Hatherley.)
LORD CAIRNSsaid, the object of the measure was good, but the Bill itself was full of imperfections.
LORD ROMILLYsaid, it was proposed to commit the Bill pro formâ in the first instance, and then the necessary alterations could be introduced.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

AUSTRALIAN COLONIES (CUSTOMS DUTIES) BILL—(No. 91).
(The Earl of Kimberley.)

COMMITTEE.
House in Committee according to Order.
Clause 1 (Short title) agreed to.
Clause 2 (Interpretation clause.)
EARL GREYrose to move an Amendment, of which he had given Notice, and. took occasion to repeat the objection he had urged on the second reading, to the policy recognized in the Bill. He contended that as Free Trade had been adopted as the commercial policy of the British Empire, it ought to be the commercial policy of our Colonies. It was easy to say—as had been said by his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies—that it was perhaps better for the Imperial Parliament to act on the principle that in these matters the Australian Colonies knew what policy was best for themselves. But he (Earl Grey) denied the soundness of that proposition. It was impossible to read the Blue Books without seeing that many of the statesmen of the Australian Colonies were in such utter ignorance of the principles of political economy, that of the writings of Adam Smith and Mr. Ricardo they seemed never to have even heard. Their Lordships were aware that before self-government was given to those colonies they had been making very rapid progress, and that, while affording emigrants from this country a rich field for their labour, they enjoyed very great advantages from the influx of British colonists. We had allowed them, and he thought properly allowed them, self-government; but it was notorious that since they had got their own Legislatures there had been in those colonies gross land jobbings and other corruption. It was going too far, therefore, to say that the Australian Colonies knew what was best for themselves, and on this plea to pass Acts in the Imperial Parliament which would sanction the severance of all material ties between them and the mother country. If this wore done, the nominal union could tend to nothing but the imposition of a burden and a responsibility on this country. If the Australian Colonies were to be allowed to tax at their pleasure British trade, to subject it to unfair disadvantages, and to
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create artificial barriers to the natural course of British commerce, he should like to know of what advantage a continuance of the union could be to this country? He believed that to sanction such a policy was as great a blunder as it was possible to commit. He thought that our Colonies should be distinctly informed that the Imperial Government had adopted a certain commercial policy, to which if they wished to remain integral portions of the Empire they must conform. He was not, however, on this occasion asking the Government to retrace their steps—he only asked that New Zealand, which was 1,200 miles from the Australian Colonies, should be omitted from the Bill; and he begged to move an Amendment to that effect.
THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, that though there were 1,200 miles of sea between the mainland of Australia and New Zealand, the people of the two Colonies followed very much the same pursuits. There were physical differences between the Colonies, but in both the colonists were Englishmen or their descendants. There was no such difference between them as to form grounds for excluding New Zealand from the benefits of this Bill. Take, for example, the case of sugar. Sugar could only be grown in Queensland and the northern parts of New South Wales. Suppose a merchant at Brisbane wanted to send a cargo of sugar in the winter season to New Zealand and another to Melbourne. In the one case he would ship it probably on board a barque which would run down before the westerly winds in 10 or 12 days. In the other case the distance was say 1,100 miles. The ship would probably have a fair wind as far, as Cape Howe, but she would then have to beat up to Melbourne through Bass's Straits, and would probably be longer on her voyage than the New Zealand vessel; and why should her sugar go into Melbourne perhaps duty free, perhaps at a very low rate, whilst the cargo of the other would be charged a high duty in New Zealand? The noble Earl (Earl Grey) had talked about shutting out the produce of other countries, but as far as he (Earl Belmore) could at this moment remember, sugar from the Mauritius was the only important article likely to be much affected, It was quite true that wine was grown in Australia, but anyone who had drunk it knew that it was a very different

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article from the wines of France and Germany, and very little likely to displace them. As to the Cape, which had been instanced, he was informed that there was absolutely no trade between Sydney and the Cape. It was very easy to get from the Cape to Sydney, but by no means so easy to get back again. With regard to Victoria, its tariff was, no doubt, protective; but he had recently heard that the lower classes were feeling the ill-effects of having to pay high prices for clothing, and that a feeling of opposition was beginning to grow up to protection. He doubted whether it could be asserted that the policy of our other Australian Colonies was, on the whole, favourable to protection. Tasmania had lost the convict settlements, on the expenditure of which it used to rely, and the only way of raising a revenue was by means of Customs duties. He knew that the tariff of South Australia was a revenue and not a protectionist tariff. He believed that the same was the case in Queensland. New South Wales never had a protective tariff. Changes occurred very rapidly in our colonies, and matters were very much altered since the noble Earl (Earl Grey) held the seals of the Colonial Office. Due allowance must be made for friction in dealing with the colonies, and if the Bill shut out New Zealand there would be friction of a very unpleasant kind. He trusted that their Lordships would not adopt a policy so unwise as to agree to the Amendment.
LORD LISGARhoped the noble Earl on the cross-benches (Earl Grey) might be induced not to press his Amendment. It was impossible not to admit the force of the arguments he had adduced, or to deny them their due weight. The measure was pregnant with all the consequences he had foreshadowed; but it was the will and doing of the colonies themselves, and if it be the thin end of the wedge of eventual separation, there could be no doubt as to the hand that placed and fixed it—it was not the hand of any British statesman or any British party, but of some colonial clique greedy of commercial profit. Let this be kept in recollection. Everything that could be stated in favour of free trade and that could show the disadvantage and mischief of protection would be found placed in the clearest light in the despatches of the Secretary of State
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for the Colonies. His hand was, however, forced, and when he found the colonies deaf to his arguments he preferred to make concessions. Some of the colonies were, no doubt, protectionist; in others the feeling in favour of protection was more apparent than real. Parties were so nearly balanced that Colonial Ministries were not always able to carry out their own views. During the seven years in which he was Governor of New South Wales he did not recollect any Minister who had been strong enough in the Legislative Assembly to impose direct taxation. When he had been there about four years the main issue at the General Election was Free Trade against Protection. The free-traders carried the day by an immense majority, and he did not believe that this feeling had died out. A Sydney newspaper which enjoyed a circulation seven times larger than its contemporaries said, that protection had never been adopted as a rule in that colony, and never would be. No Minister in New South Wales had ever attempted to form an Administration on protective principles. New South Wales was indispensable to any protectionist combination, and so long as it remained favourable to Free Trade any protectionist union would be impossible.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that although the point raised by the noble Earl (Earl Grey) in his Amendment was comparatively minute, yet he did not regret that the debate had taken a wider range. He regretted that this Bill had become necessary; but the principle of self-government was even more important than the principle of free trade. He agreed that the Government were taking a serious step; but it was exaggerating its importance to say that the Bill took a step which was leading in the path of Colonial independence. It only allowed the Australian Colonies to follow a policy which other colonies had already been permitted to adopt. Long before confederation, the North American Colonies were allowed to establish differential duties between themselves and it was remarkable that the commencement of that policy dated from 1850, when his noble Friend on the cross-benches (Earl Grey) held the seals of the Colonial Office. The Canadian Legislature in that year passed an Act providing that the Governor in Council might declare any article which

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was the growth, produce, or manufacture of the British North American Provinces or possessions, or any one or more of them, to be admissible into Canada free of duty, and might determine under what circumstances, conditions, and regulations they should be admitted. It was true his noble Friend did not advise assent to that measure; but, on the other hand, he did not advise disallowance of it. What he did was this: Finding himself responsible for the maintenance of good relations between this country and one of our great colonies, his noble Friend did not venture to advise the disallowance of the Bill, but he suggested an Amendment—which, however was disregarded by the Colonial Legislature, and the measure passed into law, and remained in force until 1859, when it was superseded by other legislation. The action taken then was similar to that which had since been taken, for it had been found inadvisable to refuse the request of the Australian Colonies to obtain power to impose differential duties as regarded their trade with each other. The Amendment moved this evening by his noble Friend had for its object the exclusion of New Zealand from the operation of the present Bill. He admitted the other night that New Zealand differed from the other Colonies, inasmuch as it was disunited from them by a considerable interval of sea; but as the noble Earl (the Earl of Belmore) then pointed out the distance from New Zealand to the nearest part of Australia was not greater for all practical purposes than the distance from one part of Australia to another, and in point of fact the intercourse between New Zealand and the Australian Colonies was extremely close. The total of the imports into New Zealand in 1871 was £4,078,192, and the total of the imports into New Zealand from Australia was no less than £1,970,159. Moreover, the latter was a constantly increasing trade. It should be borne in mind that New Zealand, although situated at a distance from Australia, belonged to all intents and purposes to the great Australian group of Colonies. The similarity of opinion between the different Colonies was remarkable, and it would be unreasonable to withhold from New Zealand a power which was granted to Australia. This was not a point in re-
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gard to which it would be wise to maintain a stubborn and unyielding opposition to the wishes of the Colonies themselves, and certainly it was very unwise to take their stand upon points in reference to which they could not maintain their position. If, however, no such opposition was advisable, no course remained open except that which Her Majesty's Government had pursued. They had placed before the Colonies the objections they entertained to the course intended to be pursued. They had given them time for reflection, and when they found that, after full consideration, they were firm in their opinion they thought it their duty no longer to resist the concessions that were desired. But Her Majesty's Government had by no means conceded all the powers which some of the Colonies asked for. They had not empowered the Colonies to conclude Treaties with foreign Powers, nor had they broken down the restrictions upon differential duties on goods imported to the Colonies from foreign countries or from this country. They had simply enabled the Colonies to make reciprocity arrangements with one another as regarded the products of the Colonies themselves. It would, in his opinion, be most unfortunate if, in these circumstances, their Lordships should be induced to accept the Amendment of his noble Friend.
Amendment negatived.
Bill reported without amendment; and to be read 3a on Friday next.

FAIRS BILL—(No. 97.)
(The Earl of Feversham.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to remove some inconveniences which attended the existing law with respect to fairs. For this purpose it repealed altogether the Fairs Act of 1868, and enabled the Secretary of State for the Home Department, on the representation of the magistrates of the petty sessional division within which any fair was held, or of the owner of any fair, to alter the days for holding such fair. The 7th clause held intact all rights of the owner.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Feversham.)
THE EARL OF POWISthought the Bill ought to provide that in any case in which it was proposed to prolong or to abridge a fair by application to the Secretary of State, notice should be given of the application by those who made it—by the justices to the owners of the land, or by the owners of the land to the justices, as the case might be—so as to prevent private injury or public inconvenience on the one hand, or injury to public morality on the other.
Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a acordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

PUBLIC WORSHIP FACILITIES BILL—(No. 56.)
(The Earl of Carnarvon.)
Suspension of Standing Order, No. 34a.
Standing Order, No. 34a, considered (according to order).
THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, that through oversight and inadvertence, this Bill, after coming from the Commons, had remained on the Order Book three weeks and a day without any Peer giving Notice of his intention to move that it be read a second time; and thus, by one day's delay, it had come under the operation of the new Standing Order that a Bill from the other House should not be proceeded with if no one took it up within 12 sitting days. The object with which that Standing Order was passed was to remedy a grievance—the crowding of their Lordships' Order Book towards the close of the Session with Orders relating to Bills that were not to be carried further. This Bill stood in an exceptional position, as it had come from the other House early in the Session, and it had the concurrence and support of the entire Episcopal Bench. The Bill had been placed in the hands of a Member of the right rev. Bench, but had been returned to him (the Earl of Carnarvon) with the request that he would take charge of it. But it happened that, when he came down accordingly to give Notice of the second reading, he found that the Bill had already fallen under the provision of the Standing Order. Under these circumstances, he proposed that the Standing Order should be considered in order to its being dispensed with. He
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understood that his noble Friend the Chairman of Committees contended that the Bill was actually extinct, and that no suspension of the Standing Order could revive it. On the other hand, he (the Earl of Carnarvon) maintained that the Bill was not dead, but merely in a state of suspended animation, and that if the Standing Order were suspended the Bill would revive. The words of the Standing Order were that "the Bill should not be entered on the Minutes, and should not be proceeded with."
LORD REDESDALE: During the Session.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: But when the Standing Order was suspended the bar was removed and the Bill revived. Their Lordships were in the habit of suspending their Standing Orders with reference to Protests being entered on the Minutes, and he ventured to think this was really a case in which he had a right to ask that, as a matter of convenience, in a case where there had been no mala fides, the Standing Order should be suspended. The noble Earl then moved that the said Order be dispensed with in respect of the said Bill.
LORD REDESDALEthought the Order an important one, and it was very necessary that their Lordships should properly deal with it. The Order was that "the Bill should not be proceeded with in the same Session," and they all knew what was meant by an Order that a Bill should not be proceeded with—it meant that the Bill could not be renewed—could not be brought up again. He was not expressing his own opinion merely, but also the opinion of the noble Lord the late Speaker of tire House of Commons. He took the Bill to be dead, and the Bill had been dead a fortnight before notice had been taken of it.
LORD CAIRNSsaid, he would take but a small part in this post-mortem inquisition. It was no doubt true that the Bill could not be proceeded with this Session if the Standing Order was not suspended; but if the Standing Order was suspended, the estoppel to the further progress of the Bill was removed, and the Bill, like any other Bill, being free from the operation of the Standing Order, would proceed. He must say if over there was a case in which it was just and proper that the Standing Order

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should be suspended, it was the present. He did not object to the Standing Order, which was an excellent one, its object being to prevent Bills which had come up from the other House in ample time for discussion being allowed to lie dormant till near the close of the Session, when many of their Lordships had left town, and then being suddenly revived after they had been lost sight of. This Bill did not come within that class. There was still plenty of time to proceed with it, and ample notice might be given. By suspending the Standing Order he thought that they would be doing what was just without infringing on the principle of the Standing Order. There was another reason why they should do so. It was perfectly competent for those who were anxious to proceed with the Bill to lay on the Table the identical Bill as a fresh Bill originating in that House, and after it had passed its different stages to send it down to the other House, which could have no objection to it, seeing it had passed the present Bill.
VISCOUNT PORTMANobjected to the suspension of the Standing Order in question in this case. He considered that the Motion was too late, as the Bill was extinct under the Order, and suspension was always moved before the Order had taken effect. Lord Eversley agreed with him in that opinion, and if the Bill had been regularly removed from the Table under this Order it was not wise to revise it by this process, as the noble Earl could bring in as a new Bill an almost identical measure. To consent to such a suspension would, he feared, lead to bad results in the case of Private Bills. There was no fair comparison between this case and those cases referred to by the noble Earl who had introduced the subject. To rescind Standing Orders relating to general legislation was a very serious matter. He could not, therefore, assent to the precedent which the adoption of the noble Earl's Motion would lay down.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he concurred in the opinion which had been expressed by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Cairns). In the present state of the case their Lordships had nothing to do with the merits of the Bill, and for himself, he had not studied it so as to be acquainted with its merits or demerits—all he knew was that it was a measure of some public importance,
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that it had the approval of some members of the right rev. Bench, and that it had passed the House of Commons. There could not be a doubt as to their Lordships' power in this matter—the Order that a Bill in the position of the present should not be proceeded with operated until it should be their Lordships' pleasure to dispense with it. The Standing Order was useful as a weapon of defence in their Lordships' hands; but if they treated it as admitting of no suspension, they might perhaps raise questions in which they might not be wholly right between that and the other branch of the Legislature. If an Order of that kind were simply an arbitrary rule that a Bill which had come up from the other House must be proceeded with in a limited time, there might be persons who would call in question the suitableness and propriety of such an Order. It was quite otherwise if they retained in their own hands the power, on reasonable cause, of which they were the judges, of dispensing and relaxing the Order. If their Lordships refused on such grounds as those suggested to allow such a Bill to go forward, they would simply abdicate their own powers over their own regulations. But of course their Lordships would not relax a Standing Order of this kind without good and sufficient reasons.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, it was undoubtedly in their Lordships' power to suspend Standing Orders if they pleased; but if they were to suspend them on such grounds as had been advanced in this ease, it would be better not to have Standing Orders at all. Standing Orders gave an assurance that a particular measure would not be proceeded with when once certain conditions were not fulfilled. He was not going to enter into the merits of the Bill—all he would say was that many persons had spoken to him on the subject, and he, relying on the Standing Order, told them that the Bill was extinct, and that they had no reason to trouble themselves further about it.
THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, he could see no ground for refusing the suspension of the Standing Order in the case of this Bill if their Lordships saw that the occasion was sufficient. There was scarcely a Session in which Standing Orders were not suspended five or six times.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDwas understood to oppose the Motion.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYadmitted that the Standing Orders afforded their Lordships considerable protection in the conduct of business; but when they considered the period of the Session and the fact that sufficient Notice had been given, he thought the Standing Order might be suspended in this case without inconvenience. He would suggest, by way of precaution against abuse, that they should put some such Preamble as the following to the Resolution:—
"Whereas the Session is not far advanced and it is convenient to interpose an interval of not less than three weeks between this time and the second reading of the Bill."
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he did not admit that the inconvenience of suspending the Standing Order was so great as to require such an apology. It was quite right that the House should take some measures to remedy any abuses arising from delay, but he was not aware of a single case in which there had been any intentional delay in taking up Bills—here there had been no intentional delay, and it would be better to alter the Standing Order than to preface the Resolution suspending it by such a Preamble.
LORD DYNEVORopposed the suspension of the Standing Order.
EARL BEAUCHAMPpointed out that if the Standing Orders were maintained, no great harm would be done after all, for things would go on for the next 12 months just as they had from time immemorial. Whatever else the Bill was intended to remedy, it would be better to bear them for a while than to incur the evils which might arise from suspending the Standing Order.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHthought the very fact that there were numbers of persons out of the House who objected to the Bill, was a reason why the Standing Order should be suspended, and the Bill considered on its merits. It was far better, even in the interests of those who were opposed to it, that it should be rejected on its merits—if rejected it should be—than that it should be defeated by the indirect operation of a Standing Order.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONexpressed his willingness to modify the Motion in the sense suggested by his
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noble Friend (the Marquess of Salisbury).
THE LORD CHANCELLORput it to the noble Earl whether it would not be an encouragement to noble Lords to move frequently at early periods of the Session that the Standing Orders should be suspended if the words in question were introduced.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he did not care to press the Preamble.
Motion agreed to.

AFRICA—WEST COAST SETTLEMENTS—THE ASHANTEE INVASION.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEasked the Colonial Secretary, Whether native troops are to be sent to the coast of Africa from the West Indies; also, whether any explanation has been received from the Administrator as to his mistaken estimate of the Ashantee power? Sufficient precautions did not seem to have been taken by the Administrator against the Ashantee attack. Re-inforcements ought to have been there four months ago, and the Ashantees, after burning the villages, and murdering or making slaves of the people under the British Protectorate, must now be only a few miles from Cape Coast Castle. Another point was that the natives depended entirely upon the British Government for ammunition, but they had not been supplied with an adequate quantity. What they wanted, also was a few European Officers to lead them. With ammunition and proper leaders they seemed to behave very well in action.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he would inform the noble Earl in a few words what was the drift of the last news received from the Gold Coast. It amounted simply to this—that since the battle in which the Fantis had, on the whole, the worst of it—although he believed they need not have retreated had they not been seized with a panic—the Ashantees had not, at the date of the last advices, made any further advance. That was the sum total of the news, which was dated the 24th of last month. He purposely omitted to mention the various rumours which prevailed, because, as the truth of them had not been ascertained, they would only mislead

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  their Lordships. The Ashantees, however, had made no forward movement since the last battle. He admitted that sufficient importance had not been attributed to the attack of the Ashantees, and that in the report which had been received by the Government, in the first instance, the numbers of the attacking force had been under-estimated. Allowance, however, must be made for the difficulty of procuring trustworthy information. Every measure had, however, been taken to secure the safety of the settlement. Colonel Harley, the new Administrator, had from the first attached great importance to this invasion. He knew that Colonel Harley had written to Governor Hennessey in this sense, and as he had at that period been a very short time on the Coast, Colonel Harley had shown himself by no means deficient in insight and prudence. With regard to the measures taken for the protection of the Settlement, the Government had sent out about 100 men—50 Marine Light Infantry and 50 Marine Artillery—not to form an expedition, but that they might assist in holding the forts and in protecting the coast towns. It was, as the noble Earl was aware, convenient under such circumstances to have men who could remain on board ship when they were not urgently required on land. The rainy season had now commenced, and that would impede the Ashantees in their movements. The West India troops would be re-in-forced by between 200 and 300 men, so that the whole regiment would be on the Coast. The reinforcements were the reliefs that would have been sent later, but had been despatched in anticipation. But while the Government had thought it right to send an additional body of troops to the Gold Coast, he admitted that the most efficient force was the native police. Mr. Hennessey recommended some time ago that a larger force of Houssa police should be substituted by degrees for the troops. This suggestion had received his approval; and although the increase of the native police had been somewhat impeded by recent occurrences, he had been so convinced that for all purposes of efficiency and economy it was better to have native police than West India troops on this coast, that he had communicated with the War Office requesting that four or
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  five officers should be selected and sent out to the Coast expressly to discipline and lead the native police. It seemed desirable that the force to be raised on the Gold Coast should be formed partly of Houssa police and partly of Fanti police, forming, however, distinct bodies of men, as it was not desirable to mix the two races, and he might mention that police who were present in the recent engagement behaved in a manner worthy of disciplined troops. Lieutenant Hopkins commanded the whole, and he was glad to find that the Administrator had reported that the behaviour of Lieutenant Hopkins, of Mr. Rowe, the second in command, and of all the white officers, was excellent in every respect. It had been stated that last week a rocket battery was sent out. It might be inferred thence that there had been no rocket battery on the Coast; but a rocket battery was used against the Ashantees, and had done severe execution against them. Indeed, if the Fantis had had the courage to advance when the Ashantees were thrown into disorder by the rockets, the result of the engagement might have been different. The Government had since sent out a further supply of rockets. With regard to the supply of powder, he was afraid it was used so recklessly by the natives, that it was almost impossible to supply their demands; but the Administrator had no instructions to limit the supply. He exercised his own discretion, and, no doubt, it was a sound one. Large supplies had been sent out, and the Government would take all the necessary steps herein. The last point to which he would advert was the discrepancy between the earlier and later statements of Colonel Harley as to the number of the Ashantees forming the army of invasion. Upon this point he would read the explanation of the Administrator, Colonel Harley, in a despatch dated Cape Coast Castle, April 12, 1873, said—
  "I fear there can be little doubt now that the Ashantees are in considerable force. I had not thought so, and my conclusion was not without some reason, as knowing something of the resources of the food supply in the districts they occupy, I imagined they could not maintain so large a force as has been variously represented at 12, 15, 20, 25, and as much as 40,000 men; but from reliable and intelligent evidence this is said to be the whole fighting strength of the Ashantee Power. It appears, however, from the evidence of prisoners that large supplies of food were brought with the army from Coomassie,

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  carried by slaves, and that the supply is so continued. Prisoners also state that they have suffered severely in the last engagement, and that they have lost some of their head men or generals. There is no doubt their casualties must have been large, if any comparison may be drawn from our own."
  This was, no doubt, a serious state of things; but the Administrator had taken prompt and active measures, and it was only due to Colonel Harley to state that, so far as he was aware, the Colonial Office had great reason to be satisfied with his proceedings.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he feared we had embarked in another African war, of a costly, doubtful, and hitherto unsuccessful character. He should be glad to know whether any Papers could be laid upon the Table which would give their Lordships some clue as to the nature and causes of this war.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, there might be a difficulty in presenting all the Papers at this moment, as some of thorn might affect individuals, but it was the intention of the Government to lay the Papers on the Table. Meanwhile, he might refer the noble Earl to the Correspondence already published relating to the transfer of the Dutch forts to this country, which threw considerable light on the pretensions of the King of Ashantee to the territory in question.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEsaid, he would have deemed the noble Earl's remarks more satisfactory if he had held out hopes that some 5,000 men would be collected on the spot as soon as possible. He hoped the noble Earl would urge upon those who had the direction of the war the necessity of seeing that the natives had a reasonable supply of ammunition.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, to Friday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.