Lords Sitting of 25 March 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Salmon Fisheries Commissioners* (47).
Second Reading—Marriages (Ireland) (40).
Committee—Report—Victoria Embankment (Somerset House)* (28); Epping Forest* (19).

THE EASTER RECESS.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he thought it would be convenient to many of their Lordships if his noble Friend (Earl Granville) could give the House some information as to the business for the next fortnight, and as to the day of adjourning for the Easter Recess, and the day on which their Lordships were to re-assemble.
EARL GRANVILLE: I believe that as regards the public business no inconvenience will arise if your Lordships adjourn on Friday, the 4th April, for the Easter Recess, and re-assemble on Monday, the 21st April.

MARRIAGES (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 40.)
(The Viscount Midleton.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to remove doubts which were entertained as to whether the provisions of 26 & 27 Vict., c. 27, relating to the registration of places of public worship in Ireland and the solemnization of marriages therein, extended to the body or people calling themselves "the Catholic and Apostolic Church," but better known as Irvingites, The difficulty had arisen from the Registrar having refused to register the places of worship of this body because, on conscientious grounds, they declined to call themselves either "Protestant Christians" or "Roman Catholic Christians." Before the Protestant Episcopal Church of Ireland was disestablished, the marriages of those persons were solemnized according to the rites of that Church, and since the disestablishment four such marriages had been solemnized in that Church; but two eminent ecclesiastical lawyers considered that in the cases of those four marriages the parties could not be regarded as having been married "in accordance with the statute." The Bill therefore proposed to remove these doubts by extending the Act of the 26 & 27 Vict.,to members of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; and the 4th clause affirmed the validity of any marriages heretofore celebrated between members of that Church in the same manner as if they had been "Protestant Episcopa-
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lians." Clause 2 would empower the chief minister of the Church of this body to grant special licences for the marriage of persons being both members of that Church at any convenient place in Ireland. The Bill had passed through the Commons with the sanction of the Government, and therefore, he presumed, there would be no objection to it on the part of their Lordships.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Viscount Midleton.)
LORD REDESDALEmust say that for a very small body, however respectable, to style itself "the Catholic and Apostolic Church" was a rather strong thing. The Irish Church, though disestablished, considered itself the Catholic and Apostolic Church in Ireland, and no doubt the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland would call itself by that name; but for a small body, which for all that appeared might only consist of persons worshipping "in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, Adelaide Road, Dublin," to be so described in an Act of Parliament would scarcely be satisfactory. Again, he thought the power of granting special licences to persons being members of the said Catholic and Apostolic Church, which the 2nd clause would confer on the "minister of the said Church for the time being officiating as chief minister of the congregation of members of the said Church at present worshipping in the Adelaide Road Church," was very objectionable.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he could not but think the objections just urged by the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees deserved consideration. If the Bill passed in its present form, there would be really nothing to identify this body. They were described as "the body or people known as the Catholic and Apostolic Church." That title was equally claimed by the Roman Catholics, and the Church of England—not to speak of other bodies—also claimed to be part of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, in the unity of which belief is professed by all who accept the Nicene creed. It was true that in a subsequent part of the Bill there was mention of "the congregation of members of the said Church at present worshipping in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, Adelaide Road, Dublin;" but he did not know whether that congregation

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was meant to be referred to as constituting the whole of the "body known as the Catholic and Apostolic Church." There was nothing in the Bill to prevent its applying to all the Christians in Ireland. He concurred with the noble Chairman of Committees in thinking that the wide power of granting special licences which the 2nd clause would confer would be objectionable; and he thought that the requirement that both parties to the marriage were members of that Church would give rise to difficulties of proof. The introduction of such Bills showed the importance of legislating on the Report of the Royal Commission on the Marriage Laws, with the view of rendering such Bills unnecessary. They led to mischievous anomalies. At the same time, it was only right that the obstacles in the way of the solemnization of marriages between members of this highly respectable body should be removed, and therefore he did not oppose the Bill; but he hoped that before it left Committee some alterations would be made in it for the better identification of this body and to remove the objection to the 2nd clause.
LORD O'HAGANsaid, he had only just seen the Bill. He concurred in what had just been said by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack. Indeed, he thought that the power which would be conferred by the 2nd clause might lead to great malversation. This was no doubt a respectable body of persons, who ought to have the protection of the law; but he objected to their minister having the power to authorise the marriage of whomsoever he pleased, without check or identification of parties.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he thought it would be a great advantage if their Lordships were to appoint a Committee every Session for the purpose of revising Bills brought into the House of Commons by private Members. Their Lordships rarely knew anything of the circumstances under which they were brought in—they were usually drawn with very little care, and the Government did not exercise over them that supervision which it was necessary they should receive from some authority. Of course, in the case of Government Bills, Parliament had the security which the talent and experience of the Government draftsman afforded; but at
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present there was nothing to prevent the insertion in Private Bills of anomalies such as those which had been pointed out in the present Bill by his noble Friend the Chairman of Committees and his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he had no wish to throw any obstacle in the way of the Bill to relieve the body in whose interest this measure was promoted; but, after what had been said in the course of the discussion, it was evident that the Bill contained provisions of a very anomalous character, and therefore he would advise his noble Friend who had charge of it to postpone the Committee until after Easter, and to communicate in the meantime with the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack in order that the Bill might do just what was wanted and not a great deal more.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.

MERCANTILE MARINE.

  ROYAL COMMISSION.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEasked when a Royal Commission or a Committee is to be appointed to inquire into the state of our Merchant Shipping as regards their being seaworthy, and as regards the safety of the lives of the seamen who went to sea in them; also with regard to the present law of insurance of ships; and as to when the investigation will commence? The noble Earl said that the subject had been so fully and ably brought before Parliament and the country by Mr. Plimsoll that it would not be necessary for him to say much upon the subject—he would, however, urge upon the Government that there should be no delay in taking action on this subject. Of course with respect to what was said of private individuals or of companies in Mr. Plimsoll's book he could say nothing; but as to the broad statements it contained he believed them to be correct, for they were confirmed by his own personal experience. The reason that he urged that there should be no delay in taking action was that the loss of life at sea was occurring day by day. Within the last two months he believed there had been 300 instances of total loss of ships, and of course there had been a proportionate loss of life.

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  These losses were not confined to coasting vessels—a great many of the vessels wrecked, were timber ships coming from Canada. These ships had all deck-loads, and these deck-loads were the occasion, in a very great measure, of the loss of the ships. He believed that Her Majesty's Government could not directly interfere with these timber ships, because the Dominion of Canada made its own laws, and there was no law at present to prevent deck-loads. He was, however, happy to say that he heard that the Government of Canada had taken the subject up, and were about to introduce a law prohibiting deck-loads on timber-ships between September and May inclusive. Many years ago this was our own law—we did not permit deck-loads to be carried during that period of the year; but in consequence of certain alterations in the Customs laws this particular law was not now in force. The loss of these timber-ships did not merely cause dreadful suffering and loss of life to the men on board them, but as these abandoned timber-ships would not sink, everyone of them became a floating rock, and any ship at night or in a fog might run against one of these floating timber-ships and founder instantly. Only the other day one of Her Majesty's frigates the Immortalité was sent to look after a water-logged timber-laden ship, and to bring her to shore or sink her. She fell in with her off Scilly, but in consequence of the weather, could not get quite close to her; she then tried to sink her by firing into her, but in consequence of the buoyancy of her cargo, could not effect that either. The question was, what was the cause of the loss of so many ships? In his humble opinion, it was that they were sent to sea overloaded. If with iron or coals, these cargoes stowed in bulk were liable to shift in bad weather—and even corn would swell with the water or shift, Again, many merchant ships went to sea improperly manned. If such ships succeeded in getting out of the Channel with a fair wind and fair weather, they proceeded on their voyages; but if bad weather was met with in the Channel the crews were totally unfit to manage them—there were not sufficient hands to take the sails off the ship, and her sails were blown away, she capsized, or she went ashore. Another point was, that
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  the merchant ships were badly found; in many cases their rigging, sails, and spars were not in a good state; and very often the ships themselves were totally unfit to go to sea. In many cases the hulls were rotten, and were not fit to stand a breeze. Last year he ventured to state that he thought that if there were no insurance there would not be half the loss of vessels, and he was now confirmed in that opinion. He did not say that insurance could be altogether done away with, but he thought that a check ought to be put upon insurance;—he thought that if no ship-owner were allowed to insure more than two-thirds of the value of the ship, so that he should always have one-third at his own risk, the consequence would be that a shipowner would take care never to send his ship to sea improperly equipped or improperly manned. Many people thought that sailors knew what ships were, and that they need not sail in any particular ship if they did not like her; but in truth they entered a ship knowing scarcely anything about her. They were bound by Act of Parliament to go to a register office, where they were entered, and they then signed articles and got an advance note. The men were generally living at a public-house, which was kept by a crimp, who got the advance tickets, and supplied them with what they wanted until it was time to go on board. If the sailor did not go on board, the crimp lost the money upon the advance note, and he therefore generally took the men on board drunk or half drunk—at a place like Gravesend. The captain knew that if he did not sail directly he might lose his men—the tug lay under his bows with her steam up, and the moment the master got the men aboard, he gave the order to go ahead:—and he never went near to a port in the Channel if he could avoid it. If they were caught in a southwest breeze the vessel began to leak, and the master was then obliged, against his will, to put into Portland, Plymouth, or Falmouth; and then the men, finding that the ship was not well found, that she leaked a good deal, and that she was shorthanded, refused to go to sea in her; the Custom-house people came on board, but they could not examine the ship properly when she was loaded; and the result often was that the crews were put into gaol, and the gaols at Dorchester, Plymouth, or Falmouth were always

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  full of them. He was aware that a great number of lawless and lazy fellows signed to go on board ships, and tried to run away when they put into port; but generally those fellows were not regular seamen, but rogues who had made the shore too hot for them. Such men deserved to be sent to gaol, but he was convinced that many seamen were wrongly imprisoned for refusing to go to sea, the reason for their refusal being the unsound state of the vessels. Sailors were the only class of working-men not protected by Parliament. The only thing which Parliament had done for them was to compel ships to carry lime juice. Of course, when a ship carried passengers, there was legal protection for passengers; but that protection was given for the sake of the passengers, and not for that of the seamen. It was time there was a change, and he therefore begged to ask the Question of which he had given Notice—namely, when the Royal Commission or a Committee was to be appointed to inquire into the state of our Merchant Shipping as regarded their being seaworthy, and as regarded the safety of the lives of the seamen who went to sea in them; also with regard to the present law of insurance of ships; and as to when the investigation would commence.
  EARL COWPERsaid, that, however important and interesting the subject might be, it was not necessary for him to enter into it in detail, because the whole matter was to be immediately referred to a Royal Commission. He had to inform their Lordships that the Commission was very nearly constituted—indeed, he hoped that before the week was out Mr. Fortescue would be able in the other House to announce the names of the Commissioners, and that the Commission would get to work immediately. He might add that his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies was in communication with the authorities of Canada with reference to the timber-ships.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that this subject was one of the gravest that had ever occupied the public mind. Her Majesty's Government must be aware of the sensation produced by Mr. Plimsoll's book. Whether the details in the book were true or were not was what he could not take on him to affirm; but this he did venture to say, that if only one-quarter of them were so, it
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  was a record of some of the most diabolical practices ever had recourse to, even in ages of great crimes. Her Majesty's Government had granted a Commission to investigate the subject: but he would suggest to them whether there was any chance of a Report from that Commission in sufficient time for legislation in the present Session—or indeed for a very long period. The area of inquiry was wide, and probably the Report would be a very long one. If there could be no legislation on the subject this Session, Her Majesty's Government ought to take care that between the present time and that at which they could act on the Report there should be a searching inspection of merchant ships before going to sea. It was stated—but he knew that such things were exaggerated—that no fewer than 4,000 seamen were drowned every year; but if only one-fourth of that number perished from the causes described in Mr. Plimsoll's book it was the duty of the Government, without waiting for the Report of the Commission, to see that a careful inspection of ships was carried out, if for the present nothing further in the way of protection could be done by the State. The noble and gallant Earl (the Earl of Lauderdale) had said that care was taken on board ships which carried passengers. He was afraid that was not always the case. He said this in consequence of an instance which had come to his own knowledge. At the end of last year the mail packet from Liverpool to Madeira left the former port with such a deck-load, that having got as far as the Irish Channel, she being in great peril was obliged to put back to Liverpool to be lightened of her load. Of course, as she was a vessel carrying Her Majesty's mails and many passengers, she must have been more or less under the inspection of official persons. When he found, then, such an occurrence as he had referred to in the case of a mail packet, he was forced to believe, however reluctantly, that at least many of Mr. Plimsoll's statements must, unfortunately, be correct.
  EARL COWPERsaid, the Government were anxious that there should be as little delay as possible, and therefore it was intended to separate the heads of inquiry, so that the Royal Commission might in the first instance investigate the most important subjects—those of

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  the unseaworthiness of ships and overloading. He did not think that the inquiry on those two branches need cause very much delay, and therefore he did not see any reason why there might not be some legislation on the subject before the termination of the present Session.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEwished to observe that, though the loss of ships was increasing, the loss of life by sea was not. This was to be accounted for by the efficiency of our life-boats, which were much more numerous around our coast.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.