Lords Sitting of 27 June 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Petitions of Right (Ireland)* (180).
Second Reading—Ecclesiastical Commissioners* (170).
Report—Thames Embankment (Land)* (137–179); Canonries* (169); Admission to Benefices and Church wardenships, &c.* (176–181).

ORDER OF MERIT.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  EARL STANHOPE,in proposing an Address, praying Her Majesty to take into her gracious consideration the institution of an Order of Merit, by which Her Majesty would be enabled to bestow a sign of her royal approbation on men who have deserved well of their country in science, literature, and art, said, that when in February last a proposal to allow British subjects to wear foreign decorations was made to the House by his noble Friend opposite (Lord Houghton), he expressed his concurrence in the answer given by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He (Earl Stanhope) then said that he deemed it of great importance to maintain the principle that the Queen alone was the fountain of honour; but at the same time he expressed his great regret that no means appeared to exist among us of distinguishing the men who had deserved well of their country, or who had attained eminence in other walks of life than civil or military service. That was no new opinion of his, arising only out of that debate. For many years past he had felt the same regret, and awaited only what he thought a favourable opportunity of submitting that question to the judgment of the House. Orders of Knighthood in their earliest origin were, it might be said, confederacies for military objects, arising from the wars in the East between the Christians and the Saracens. One of those early institutions—the Knights of Malta—continued, as their Lordships knew, to live, or at least to linger, until nearly their own times. Subsequently there arose other Orders of Knighthood rewarding military services in wars between the divers Christian States. Civil services were for the most part only by slow degrees acknowledged. Still more tardy had. been the recognition by any State of

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  merit in literature, art, or science, which, indeed, in a less civilized state of society, were held of small account. Poets, for example, in this country were for some time regarded as an inferior rhyming race, whose principal distinction was the Poet Laureateship, and their principal employment to extol in birthday odes the virtues of the reigning King and Queen. Only by degrees had juster ideas on these points prevailed, and at present there was scarcely a State of any importance on the Continent which had not admitted the right to decorations to the men of eminence in art, science, and literature. England only, he believed, among the nations of Europe was on these points, he must say, discreditably lagging in the rear. As regarded those foreign nations, he would not weary the House by going over the States of small extent or more recent formation, but would confine himself to those four which, in conjunction with England, used to be surnamed the Five Great Powers. First, as to France. There, as was well known, the Legion of Honour was in its very nature comprehensive. There, an artist like Delaroche, or a man of science like Cuvier, was decorated with the same riband that rewarded a diplomatist like Talleyrand or a statesman such as Thiers. There, as he would venture to assert, a most healthful spirit of emulation was engendered by a distinction which was open to all, and which required no passport of birth, but only the proof of merit. Passing to Austria, he had received much information from that most accomplished statesman, Count Beust, who now so worthily represented the Court of Vienna in this country. He learnt from him that of the various Austrian Orders only one, that of Maria Theresa, was strictly confined to military service. To the others, men of literature and science were freely admissible. As instances might be mentioned, Professor Mittermeyer, of Heidelberg, and a poet at Vienna of great fame throughout Germany, and less known in England than perhaps he deserved to be, Grillparzer, who had attained old age, and was celebrating the anniversary of his birth with his friends, when, by a graceful attention of the Emperor, he was gladdened by receiving the Grand Cross of the Francis Joseph. Much the same, as far as he could learn, was the case in Russia. No Order was
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  specially reserved for men of art and science, but they could find a place in others side by side with the men who had served the State in administration and in warfare. In Prussia of late years the greatest zeal in this cause had been shown. There was an Order entitled Pour le Mérite, founded by Frederick the Great, who had appropriated it to military service in the field; but the late King of Prussia, by a decree, dated May 31, 1842, extended the Order, or rather formed a new class in it, for men who had attained eminence in any branch of knowledge or of art. The number of these, exclusive of honorary members from foreign countries, was fixed at 30, and it was added in the decree—"The study of theology is in accordance with its spirit excluded from this Order." Here, perhaps, there was much to be said on both sides. On the one hand it might seem hard that eminence in theology should not be rewarded as eminence in different branches of study; on the other hand, it was certain that, wherever religious jealousies were rife, a minister would be exposed to constant misconstruction, as if he sought to promote a particular doctrine, while he ought only to consider the claims of eloquence and learning. He was not concerned, however, at present to argue that particular point one way or other; he had mentioned it only as part of the information which he was desirous of affording. He now came to the case of England, and here he would venture to assert that, so far as concerned the recognition of literature, science, and art, we, far from advancing, had actually retrograded. He would go through our different stars and crosses. The Order of the Garter was, as their Lordships' knew, confined to Peers. The instances of Commoners holding it since the Revolution—Sir Robert Walpole, who received it before he was created a Peer —Lord North and Lord Castlereagh, as eldest sons of Peers—were very few. It had been refused by both Mr. Pitt and Sir Robert Peel. The same might be said of the Orders of the Thistle in Scotland, and St. Patrick in Ireland. As to the Bath, originally the reward of naval and military services, it had been extended to diplomatists and statesmen, but was not now extended to men in other walks of life. That had not been always so, for a red riband was formerly granted

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  to men of science, and it added to the dignity with which Sir Joseph Banks used to preside over the Royal Society. No similar instance could be given at the present time, and it was this fact which justified him in saying that in this respect, far from advancing, we had, in truth, gone back. The inequality of the present system had also been strikingly shown by the decoration of the Bath being conferred only a few weeks since on Professor Owen, a man, he need not say, of the greatest eminence in the science of Palæontology, but who was eligible only as the holder of an office in the Civil Service—namely, at the British Museum. Now suppose that a man of equal eminence in the kindred study of Geology, Sir Charles Lyell, had been marked out for the like honour from the Crown; then as not holding an office he would not be eligible. Was not this single fact sufficient to make out the case against the present rules? Here were two men equally great in science; the one eligible for distinction because he filled an office, the other not eligible because without place or salary he had laboured in the same cause as an independent man. His object would be equally attained by the foundation of a new Order, or by the creation of a new class of the existing Order of the Bath, conferable upon distinguished men of literature, science, and art; and it would be for the advisers of the Crown to consider which course was preferable. He could not see why one or other of these courses should not be pursued. If done, he believed, the effect would be to give a great encouragement to the progress of literature, science, and art in this country, and that a befitting means would be thereby supplied to the State to reward distinguished men who had hitherto been neglected by it. In the debate referred to, the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) spoke slightly of the value of Orders, and cited the remark made of Lord Castlereagh by Prince Metternich at the Congress of Vienna, undecorated in the midst of diplomatists brilliant with stars and ribands—"Mafoi! c'est bien distinguâ." But from whom did the disparagement of Orders in that debate proceed? Who was the noble Earl who spoke so slightingly of them? Why, a Knight of the ancient and illustrious Order of the Garter. Was it then seemly in a Knight of that
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  illustrious Order, in a man who had attained the highest distinction that Order could confer, to blame other men who, in reward of honourable labour, sought in a lesser field a like distinction? For the noble Earl to adopt such a tone was something like one of the merchant princes of London—a Rothschild, say, or a Baring—holding forth on the worthlessness of wealth. Members of this House were ambitious of earning a red or blue riband by public service; and why should it be discreditable for the poet or artist to nourish a similar ambition? To condemn Orders altogether would partake too much of that utilitarian spirit which, unhappily, was only too characteristic of the present age. If admitted in this case it might be applied to other cases also. Why might not the standard of England itself be described as only a piece of silk, red or blue, with some devices embroidered upon it and stuck at the end of a pole? Yet, this was the standard which had never waved without affording protection to all entitled to it, and which thousands had died for in battle rather than surrender. Much had been said out-of-doors of the difficulty there would be in selecting men for this distinction. He admitted that there would be a difficulty; but the First Lord of the Admiralty had to select lieutenants from cadets, and captains of ships from lieutenants, while the abolition of purchase in the Army had increased the responsibility of the Commander-in-Chief with regard to appointments. The difficulty of selection would not be greater in that than in other cases, and he might add that both the late Prime Minister and the present, Mr. Disraeli and Mr. Gladstone, both men of literary attainments and corresponding reputation, would be peculiarly qualified to select the proper men. In the establishment of such an Order three rules, however, would be essential, and those would lessen the difficulty of selection. It might be right in already established Orders, as in the Garter, to consider political partizanship or party fidelity, but the new Order of Merit should be open to all parties and to all or nearly all professions and ranks, while the person admitted must be left quite free to vote against the Minister who had recommended him. Next, the number, whether confined to a single class, or, as he would rather advise, extended to

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  two, should, as in Prussia, be limited; for otherwise there would be constant solicitation to add one more, instead of, when once filled, leaving only vacancies to be supplied. Thirdly, the Order should not carry with it any change of title, as distinct from the name of the recipient. In some cases knighthood would be welcomed; but not unfrequently men who had attained great celebrity by a particular name were unwilling to change it, however slightly. This was the case with Mr. Hallam, when offered a Baronetcy by Sir Robert Peel, and was one of the motives, though not the only one, which led Mr. Grote to decline the peerage offered him by Mr. Gladstone. The change of title might, when consistent with the merits of the case, and agreeable to the feelings of the person concerned, be effected by a separate act of favour from the Crown. With these rulers he had no fear as to the working of the measure. Such was the case which he desired to lay before the House. Whatever might be thought of the manner in which he had treated it, he was sure that the object itself would receive careful consideration from the advisers of the Crown. In the course of his public life he bad been greatly struck by the contrast between the contempt and disdain often felt for literature and science by underlings in office, and the respect and attention almost invariably shown them by those men of higher mark at the head of public affairs. He was sure that the Ministers of Her Majesty would carefully consider this object, and he should rejoice if they felt it within their sphere of duty to concede it. If not, he would appeal to the House at large to put an end to that feeling of dissatisfaction, that chafing at unequal right which existed to a large extent in the literary, artistic, and learned classes in England. He appealed to the House—and these should be his last words—to seek to do honour to those men who had done honour to their country.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty would be pleased to take into her gracious consideration the institution of an Order of Merit by which Her Majesty would be enabled to bestow a sign of her royal approbation upon men who have deserved well of their country in science, literature, and art.—(The Earl Stanhope.)
  EARL GRANVILLEadmitted the force of the arguments so clearly urged by his noble Friend, and felt that in urging any arguments on the other side it was rather difficult to do so in the present Assembly; he, however, did not think sufficient reason had been shown for acceding to the Motion. He fully agreed in all that had been said respecting the deservings of distinguished men of science, literature, and art, of whom the country had good reason to be proud, and that he should be glad to see his way to doing something towards satisfying the aspirations of the noble Earl; but he feared that the difficulties of dispensing a new Order of Merit such as that suggested were by far greater than the noble Earl seemed to think. One of the existing Orders, that of the Garter, had been remarkable for the distinguished persons who had possessed it, yet one of the things which gave it its charm was its mediaeval character, and nobody would think of proposing that such an Order should now for the first time be created for the purpose of being distributed in the manner in which it was now generally done. No doubt there might be some advantage for a time in the creation of new Orders by despotic Sovereigns. For instance, no one could doubt that when the despotic head of an Empire like Napoleon I., with his great military genius, instituted the Lâgion d' Honneur, it inspired his troops with a spirit of emulation which facilitated his achievements; but the importance of these Orders somewhat diminished as time went on. It was some years since he lived in France, but he found the Lâgion d' Honneur much depreciated, not when given for eminent services, but because almost every third or fourth person one met in the streets displayed that red riband. He did not mean to say that that would be the case if the Order the noble Earl desired were established; but he thought that the creation of such Orders and their too free distribution might have the same effect. He agreed with his noble Friend that if an Order of Merit were established it must be irrespective of political opinions, and open to every profession in which distinction was sought, leaving the recipient thoroughly independent of the influence of party; but he saw difficulties in the practical working of it, and he was not sure that they

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  were not greater in a country having the inestimable advantage of representative institutions than in one of a more despotic character. Their Lordships would all admit that the Prime Minister was overworked to a very great degree, and he doubted the wisdom of adding to his duties and obligations; yet it appeared to him impossible for any other person, with regard to an Order of Merit distributed among every class of the community, to assume the duty of administering it. In other countries it might be all very well for those who had already received honours to recommend those to whom they should be given; but in this country that would be a sort of close corporation which would infallibly break down. Literary pensions had given rise in innumerable cases to criticism and dissatisfaction, and promotion in the Admiralty was not an analogous ease, for the First Lord was bound to acquaint himself with the merits of the officers under him. His noble Friend had mentioned Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Disraeli as men of literary eminence themselves entitled to distinction, but all Prime Ministers, though good Prime Ministers, were not equally competent judges. Sir Robert Walpole had a supreme contempt for the whole class of literary men, yet under the Motion he would have had to decide who was the best poet, the best historian, and the best jurist. He (Earl Granville) believed a Prime Minister would be above political considerations; but in the working of our institutions he was not sure whether, out of two men of equal attainments, the one who had written ably and successfully on the Ministerial side would not have the preference, unless the case were a very glaring one. The difficulties of instituting new Orders of this kind were enormous. He agreed to a certain extent with his noble Friend that it was illogical to confine rewards to servants of the Crown; but it should be remembered that it was the object of the State to tempt the best men into the public service, and that a certain number of rewards distributed among them increased the consideration in which they were held. It was a very different thing for the head of a representative Government to select virtuous, eminent, and distinguished persons from the whole community. He knew that many were anxious
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  to obtain some such recognition of great services to the public, but he doubted whether men like Lord Macaulay and Sir Charles Lyell would derive the slightest increased consideration from an Order of that character; while, if mistakes were made, as was certain to happen in comparing different walks in life, there would be outcry and dissatisfaction. He did not complain of the noble Earl having brought the subject forward, or of the manner in which he had treated it. It was a matter, of course, quite open to discussion, and that House was perfectly qualified to express their opinion upon it. All he could say at present on the subject was that the Government saw no means of giving practical effect to the noble Earl's views, and therefore he could not agree to the Motion.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, that as one who had taken some interest in the question of foreign decorations, he desired to say a few words on the question. He approached the consideration of the question with great diffidence, and although he admitted the existence of many objections could not withhold his support from the Motion of the noble Earl (Earl Stanhope). The discussion raised by himself (Lord Houghton) on a former occasion was useful, as having elicited the fact that the objection to wearing foreign decorations rested simply on the order of one of the Departments of the State, not countersigned by the Sovereign or even by the Prime Minister, and that there existed no legal penalty or disqualification on the subject. The matter under discussion, however, was a perfectly distinct question, and he must urge that it was advisable to keep the noble Earl's proposition altogether distinct from the question of the acceptance by Englishmen of foreign orders. The objections just urged by his noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs were very obvious, and it was doubtless easier to reward public servants than to select men distinguished in art, science, and literature; but if the proposal of the noble Earl were carried out, he believed the advantages that would accrue would considerably outweigh the defects comprised in those objections. Were such an Order established, probably the men who had most influenced the minds of their countrymen would

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  hardly come under the cognizance of those who distributed decorations. Three men in the lifetime of their Lordships had guided and influenced the mind of England. The generation from which he came was under the moral and philosophical influence of Coleridge, under whose genius the literature of the time was almost transformed. The following generation, perhaps, not so patently, but in a great degree, was under the influence of Mr. Thomas Carlyle, whose writings had influenced not only the philosophy, but the practical statesmanship, of our time, and had even affected the structure of the English language. There had since been the influence of Mr. John Stuart Mill. He would not say that no one of these three men would in all probability have been offered or accepted any decoration; but it was not by these high superiorities that the question must be tried, but by the ordinary eminences in science, literature, and art. In addition to the arguments for the Motion urged by the noble Earl opposite, he would urge the evil to both parties of isolating literature from our political and social system, and the importance of bringing literary men into brotherhood with men of different conditions and ranks, thereby doing much to secure the maintenance of the orders of society and a community of interests among all classes. It was also desirable to take a step which would indicate the importance of art and literature, and would show that the well-being of a nation did not depend on active pursuits alone. Moreover, if by any recognition of the merits of science and art they could keep more prominently before the nation those qualities upon which the dignity, prosperity, the power and the mind of the nation depended for their development, a great good would be effected. The noble Earl said that he would be equally satisfied with the institution of a new Order, or with the extension of some existing Order for the purpose; but he (Lord Houghton) would, for his part, much prefer the latter, one effect of which would be to bring men of literature and science to a position of greater social dignity, and tend to put them upon a greater degree of equality with their Lordships than at present. The Order of the Bath had been extended to all civil officers under the
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  Crown, and that measure though denounced at the time, as exercised in an unscrupulous manner and to lessen the dignity of the Order, had been received with public favour. Many men of political distinction had received decorations, but the fact that Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Disraeli went about the world entirely undecorated argued caprices and inconsistencies in the distribution of Orders such as could hardly be equalled if they were extended to literature and science. He had had the honour of being present at the dinner given by the late King of Prussia to the Ordre de Mérite, which had maintained the French name it derived from its founder's Gallican proclivities, and he was much impressed at seeing an academy, as it were, of every kind of mental distinction gathered round an intellectual Sovereign. He believed the difficulty of selection would be less than in the distribution of rewards in the public service, for the Minister, though he might make mistakes, which attended the distribution of all honours and rewards, would be guided, not only by his own opinion, but by the distinct affirmation of the public, which would point out the men fit to receive the distinction; and, overworked as Mr. Gladstone was, he was sure his own classical mind and love of literature could have no more grateful task than the recognition of intellectual eminence. If, as his noble Friend seemed to think, these Orders were declining in estimation, why had the Order of the Star of India and that of the Victoria Cross been created? The diffusion of education and the general system of competitive examination had laid the foundation for a great intellectual hierarchy, of which the institution proposed would be the proper consummation. A considerable amount of knowledge and capacity had been made a requisite, perhaps in an exaggerated form, for the public service. If that were a sound policy, why should there not be a distinct recognition of mental eminence?
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he must contend that the recognition of literary and scientific men as a separate class was undesirable. To attach them to the institutions of their country they required no special honours or rewards as a class, as had been attempted by foreign countries, and with very poor

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  success. He had no wish to create in them a class feeling, which would tend to diminish their feeling themselves to be fellow-citizens who were doing good work in their country, and resting their reputation on their merits alone. The Victoria Cross was the reward of an act of bravery as to which there could be no dispute; but a selection of literary and scientific men would be much more difficult; while the limitation of the number would involve serious heart-burnings, and temporary popularity instead of solid merit would be likely to gain the distinctions. The wisest course was, he thought, to leave matters in their present position, and instead of attempting to give to literary and scientific, men a new distinction of doubtful value, to allow them to enjoy, as they had hitherto done, that unbought honour which sprang from the admiration and gratitude of their countrymen.
  EARL GREYsaid, he was of opinion that if the object which it was proposed by the Motion to attain were to be effected at all, it would be better done by the extension of the Order of the Bath, than by the creation of any new Order. The Order of the Bath, he might add, was with a very few exceptions, given only as a reward for distinguished naval and military services; but in 1846, when the Government of his noble Friend Earl Russell came into office, the question of extending the Order to civilians eminent in literature and art was very carefully considered, and it was determined that it would not be expedient to take that course. He was at the time at the Head of the Colonial Department, and he could state that, in company with himself, some of the most distinguished literary men concurred in that view. The Government of Sir Robert Peel had, he believed, previously arrived at a similar conclusion. The reasons given by his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in opposition to the Motion, were in his opinion quite sound. The practical difficulties in the way of giving distinctions, such as those under discussion, to literary men in our existing state of society would, he had no doubt, be found to be most formidable, and he must, therefore, express his satisfaction at the decision which the Government had come to on the subject.
  On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

  AGRICULTURAL RETURNS FOR SCOTLAND.—QUESTION.
  LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICKasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether in compiling the Agricultural Returns for Scotland in future years they will be enabled to introduce the following returns:—

  "1. A return of the number of acres of land now under cultivation which would be susceptible of remunerative improvement by underground. drainage:

  "2. A return of the number of acres of land now classed as heath or mountain land susceptible of profitable reclamation and improvement in connection with underground drainage:

  "3. A return of the number of acres of land now classed as heath or mountain land appropriated exclusively to the support of deer:

  "4. A return of the number of acres of land now classed as heath or mountain land incapable of cultivation and unsuitable for the support of live stock of any description other than deer:"

  And, whether Her Majesty's Government will direct the Agricultural Returns for Scotland to be compiled in Scotland, and to be published in a separate volume with a distinct report? The noble Lord said, he trusted he might claim their Lordships' indulgence, while he explained the reasons which had influenced him in putting these Questions. The increase which had taken place in the price of provisions, and the great extent to which we had become dependent upon foreign countries for our supply of food, made it extremely important to ascertain, if possible, in what degree the productive powers of our own kingdom could be developed. Great difference of opinion existed upon this subject among even the most competent judges, and it was very desirable that there should be established, if the information could be arrived at, a more certain basis upon which opinion could be founded on this important subject. It was with a view of eliciting as much information as he could on the subject, that he had put these questions upon the Paper. He had limited his inquiries to Scotland, inasmuch as that portion of the kingdom appeared to be peculiarly open to the sort of improvement they suggested, and should the information be furnished, and the results found to be of a character that would demand further inquiries as to other portions of Great Britain, similar Returns might be obtained from the rest of the kingdom. If their Lordships would

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  refer to the Agricultural Returns which were already in their possession, as coming from Scotland, they would find that the acreage of that country was set down as 19,639,000 acres. Under the head of arable and improved pasture land, there were stated to be 4,538,000 acres; and upwards of 15,000,000 acres were put down as heath and mountain land. In endeavouring to ascertain what was the margin of increase that could be obtained in the productive power of the country, attention should be first turned to the character of the arable and pasture land capable of improvement by drainage and in other ways; and it seemed to be the opinion of those who were best acquainted with the subject, that great results might be obtained from the improvement of this description of land already more or less under cultivation. He trusted, therefore, that the Government would give a promise that in future the number of acres of land which would come within the particular category of land capable of further improvement would be given. He had no doubt that that part of the information required could be obtained with tolerable correctness. It was within his own knowledge, that in the part of the country in which he lived, every farmer, land agent, and proprietor was well acquainted with the quantity of arable land to which the system of tile drainage could be profitably applied. It was also important in making these Returns that they should have as accurate figures as could be obtained as to the quantity of land that came within the category of non-pasturage or waste. It was found in the Returns that had been published, that by far the greater portion of the country was returned as heath and mountain land, and that Return had led in various parts of the country to a good deal of misapprehension as to the real character of the soil. Among the agricultural classes there was the strongest apprehension that a very large portion of the soil was purposely retained in an unproductive state, simply for the sport and entertainment of the upper classes; and he thought it important that some notice should be taken of the Return; that it should be analyzed and distinctly characterized, so that in some degree the different uses to which that large area of land was devoted might be known. The Returns he asked for also included the
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  number of acres that were capable of being reclaimed and rendered productive to the extent of paying 5 per cent on the outlay which such reclamation would involve. There was no doubt that such a Return would hardly be a very accurate one in the first instance, but every year would help to make it more reliable and authentic. Then, again, he asked for Returns as to the quantity of land that was exclusively appropriated to the support of deer. Such a Return would be a very valuable one in the agricultural statistics of Scotland under any circumstances; but it appeared to him that the information was more than ever desirable at the present time with reference to a controversy which had lately risen on this subject—a controversy that had been pursued with considerable heat on both sides—on the part of those who were the votaries of sport and the owners of deer forests, and also on the side of those who thought that those deer forests involved an unjustifiable use of property. It was stated on the one hand, that the maintenance of these deer forests involved a depopulation of the country to a certain extent, and the substitution of an inferior and unprofitable class of the community for a more industrious and intelligent class; that it also involved to some extent a limitation of area of agricultural produce, and a consequent limitation of the profitable employment of capital; that it was in some degree an unjustifiable abuse of the rights of property, tending to produce dissent and dissatisfaction between the various classes of the community; and that the abuse was so great that it ought to be restrained. Their Lordships were aware that these arguments had been vigorously met by arguments on the other side. Those who were in favour of the appropriation of land in the way under discussion, denied that it produced any diminution of population whatever, and affirmed that the order of people, gamekeepers and others, whom it substituted for the previous inhabitants, were as respectable in their social position as the shepherd was in his. They also said, that although there might be a diminution of the meat supply in one form, there was a substitution of another description of animal food; and that, even if there were some loss at home under that head, the production of meat coming

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  within the class referred to was stimulated elsewhere, for they asserted that the farmers and shepherds who left the Highlands of Scotland carried their capital and their industry to Canada and Australia, where the identical commodities which they formerly produced in their own country were produced by them and sent to our markets in increased quantities, and to some extent of better quality, so that in reality there was no limitation of this sort of produce. Moreover, they affirmed that while the introduction of deer did no substantial harm, it led to a great deal of money being spent in the country that would not otherwise have circulated there, on the part of those who hired the deer forests, and that it led to society being sustained in remote parts of the Highlands which would otherwise remain unvisited and desolate. What was remarkable in the controversy was, that it proceeded from a very slight knowledge of the fact. It was not his purpose to express any opinion on the subject one way or the other. He was asking for information, and it would be inconsistent and illogical for him to offer an opinion; but he might be permitted to say that, in his humble judgment, that part of the question which had reference to the extent of the deer forests was a very important one, and that without a knowledge of the area of the land so occupied, it would be impossible to arrive at any very sound conclusion on the subject. It might be doubted whether it would be easy to make such a Return in the case of land occupied as deer forests as could be made as to the arable and pasture land; but he thought that the Return might be easily obtained on application to the proprietors and agents of the land. If the area were ascertained, there would be no difficulty in also getting at its productive powers, and the difference that would be made by the substitution of one class of produce for another. He also desired Returns of the amount of land absolutely unavailable for any productive purpose, and that Return was absolutely necessary in order to get at the future productive capacity of the whole country. It would probably be found that a very considerable area of the Highlands of Scotland came under that category. In the existing Returns upwards of 4,000,000 acres were set down as altogether unused for any
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  agricultural purpose. He hoped that the Government, if these Returns were granted, would order that they should be printed in a separate and distinct form. It was undesirable that the Agricultural Returns for Scotland should be mixed up with those of England. The land in Scotland was held in a different manner from that of England—it was transferred in a different way; the inhabitants' customs of tenancies were all different from those of England. He also thought that the Returns should be accompanied by a Preface or Report, composed by some distinguished and intelligent Scottish agricultural authority, a task which might with great propriety be entrusted to the Secretary of the Highland Society, who would be enabled to frame such a Report as might be thought highly interesting, popular, and instructive.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL,in reply, said, he hoped his noble Friend (Lord Napier) would not think him an enemy to the progress of knowledge, and that he would excuse him, if he ventured to suggest that there were very serious difficulties involved in getting the Returns, so that they might be inserted in the manner wished by his noble Friend. He entirely agreed in the desirability of enlightening the public mind on the facts in respect to the tenure of land and the occupation and improvement of the soil, and also believed that many of the arguments used on both sides of those vexed questions implied the most entire ignorance of the whole state of those facts as regarded Scotland. He was anxious to supply such further information and knowledge as would be useful on that subject; but he would point out to his noble Friend that it must be knowledge of facts, and not knowledge of opinion. The noble Lord asked that in compiling the Agricultural Statistics of Scotland, they would introduce certain Returns, which he specified, but a Return in the Parliamentary sense of the term meant a Return of clear definite facts, easily ascertainable, and not of matters of opinion. Now, of the four heads included in his noble Friend's Question, only one referred strictly to a matter of fact, and he did not think the answer to it would be of much use to him. His noble Friend wanted—

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  "A return of the number of acres of land now under cultivation, which would be susceptible of remunerative improvement by underground drainage."
  That involved all sorts of speculative opinions. Why, there was hardly a field belonging to any of their Lordships which would not be the better for being re-drained. Some drains got choked up, and some spots got damp, and there were a variety of circumstances to be considered. But his noble Friend not only said "susceptible of improvement," but susceptible of remunerative improvement." That was another thing, and involved another whole set of hypotheses. The question of remuneration or non-remuneration of agricultural lands was entirely a matter of local circumstances and demands, and depended upon the question of locality and markets. His noble Friend might as well ask for a Return of the number of acres of land in England capable of being turned into market gardens. Almost every acre would be capable of being so converted. Market gardens gave the maximum rate of rent—from £20 to £30 per acre—and its produce might amount to £40 or£50 or even £60. No, doubt, a large portion would be capable of being converted into a market garden; and perhaps at some future time, it would all be turned into market gardens; but it would be an absurd question to put, as to how much was capable of being turned into market gardens. That entirely depended upon the circumstances under which the land was let; and equally so, with the question of land being capable of remunerative drainage, that was entirely a question of opinion depending upon the local circumstances and local requirements. That was a Return that the Government were not prepared to make, and which no Government ought to be required to give, being one which to a great degree must be based upon speculative opinion. The next Return desired by his noble Friend was—
  "A. return of the number of acres of land now classed as heath or mountain land susceptible of profitable reclamation and improvement in connection with underground drainage."
  He (the Duke of Argyll) had not the slightest doubt, that at some future period a very large part of the heath and mountain lands of Scotland which were not now occupied, would be reclaimed,
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  but that would depend upon the progress of society. But it was a speculative question how, when, and where the land could be remunerative. He could not see how such Returns could be given. The agricultural people of Scotland were intelligent persons, and very much alive to their own interests, and they were the best judges of when and where these lands were to be converted into arable lands. The process of reclamation was going on rapidly in the Highlands of Scotland, and wherever those interested locally were convinced that it would be profitable to so convert the land, it was done. He never went to the Highlands without seeing that such was the ease; but he doubted whether information received from a Government officer on the subject would be a safe guide for public opinion in reference to it. Moreover, it would be absolutely impossible for any Government to say when a slope of mountain was to be reclaimed, and how it was to be done. As to the third question, namely—
  "A return of the number of acres of land now classed as heath or mountain land appropriated exclusively to the support of deer,"
  that was the only question of a matter of fact, and even that could not be given without some expression of opinion. No doubt when the surveys for Scotland were complete, they would get with more accuracy the acreage of the deer forests of Scotland; but what information would the public get from that? The land differed vastly in quality, and the number of acres would be wholly illusory as to the profitable occupation of the soil. There were thousands of square acres that would not support a sheep; therefore the Returns would be a fallacious indication of the real value of the land. If a Return were made of the number of acres of all the pleasure grounds and flower gardens in England, Scotland, and Ireland, in the vicinity of large towns, he believed its value would exceed that of the whole deer forests of Scotland. He then came to Question No. 4—
  "A return of the number of acres of land now classed as heath or mountain land, incapable of cultivation and unsuitable for the support of live stock of any description other than deer."
  That Return, too, would necessarily be based upon speculative opinion. There were few spots, with the exception of stony ridges and peaks, on which an

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  animal of some description—a goat, for instance—could not find something to live upon. Under all those circumstances, it was impossible to grant the Returns asked for, the duty of the Government being to furnish facts and not opinions. If they placed the obtaining of the Returns in the hands of one person, as suggested, it might prove to be a formidable engine for the dissemination of particular opinions. Their Lordships, doubtless, remembered that in one of his public speeches last winter, his noble Friend Lord Derby made a statement as to the occupation and cultivation of land in which there was, no doubt, a great deal of truth; but that statement had been seized upon by all sorts of persons, and twisted in the effort to make it support views wholly different from those which it was meant to illustrate. Under those circumstances, he thought it would be imposing upon them a task which they ought not to be called upon to perform, for if the Government were to place a duty in the hands of an officer, involving questions as to how land should be used here and there all over the country, it would be illusory in its nature and would inevitably lead to interminable controversies and misleading data. Under those circumstances, he could not hold out any hope of the Returns being furnished in the manner suggested in the Question of his noble Friend.

  INDIA—DESTRUCTION OF LIFE BY WILD BEASTS.—QUESTION.
  LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK,in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether the Government of India had under its consideration any measure for the prevention of the destruction of life and property in India by wild beasts?—said, the question was one which concerned the welfare and safety of a numerous, remote and defenceless order of Her Majesty's subjects, and he need, therefore, he felt, make no apology for bringing it under the consideration of their Lordships' House. The outlines of the Question had been furnished in a paper recently read in the Society for the Promotion of Social Science by a meritorious officer of the Bengal Service —Captain Rogers —who was favourably known by his services in connection with penal institutions in India. That paper
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  had, he believed, been forwarded to many of their Lordships. While he did not adopt all the assertions made and conclusions drawn by Captain Rogers, he could not but recognize and acknowledge the service he had rendered in dealing with that subject. The evil was not general, but it was very serious where it existed; and it existed in its worst form in Bengal, the North-Western Provinces, and in central India. It appeared from a Return for three years, that the average loss of human life in the British provinces from the cause referred to was 4,138. The reports for those provinces were, however, in themselves, incomplete, and did not extend to the native states, and it was, in fact, calculated that the number did not fall far short of 10,000. The Returns as to the loss of live stock were far more complete. They showed that in Madras 60 live stock were killed for one human being. There were no Returns for six districts, but he thought he might say that 100 live stock were killed for one human being. So that if 10,000 human beings were killed, the number of live stock destroyed would amount to 500,000. The value of those domesticated animals was uncertain, but might be set down as between £250,000 and £500,000. But that was not all—the sufferings and losses were not confined to the actual destruction of human and animal life, for still greater loss and suffering were caused by the loss of labour and produce by the limitation of culture, the interruption of traffic, and the habitual terror produced by these animals. Everyone, therefore, would admit the importance of the subject, and the Government were bound in honour and in duty to do something more than had hitherto been attempted. The sufferings of the people from wild animals, moreover, were much aggravated by the disarmament which followed upon the Indian Mutiny, for in consequence of that step being taken, the Government had deprived the people of the arms which they were formerly allowed to possess, and there could be no doubt that the want of arms had made them more submissive to the ravages of wild beasts. The extension of culture in the woods and the protection of woods were also causes that had contributed to the increase of the evil. The Indian Government were bound as far as possible to protect the lives and property of

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  Her Majesty's subjects, and he would recommend that the whole question should be placed in the hands of the police. They should continue to make full and accurate Returns of the loss of life and property from wild beasts, and there should also be a continuance of the system of offering rewards for their destruction. In India, where everything was hereditary, there was a class of hereditary huntsmen. The native shikarries might be intrusted with a certain number of arms, for which they should be held responsible, and a special service might be organized in connection with these native huntsmen under English officers, such service adopting the use of a familiar name, but with an object in no way so atrocious as that applying to the former, might be appropriately termed "Tiger Thugs." He did not propose a settled general establishment; but experience had now shown, that to expect the wild animals of India to be destroyed by spontaneous efforts and under the existing system was hopeless. It might be supposed that in a matter affecting their lives and property, the natives might be trusted to defend themselves; but those who held such an opinion were little acquainted with the actual condition and character of the people of India. The people were incapable of undertaking the destruction of wild beasts, without the intervention of the Government; and they would go on for years, submitting to the infliction of their present sufferings. The active interference of the Government was not without example in India; and it was justified by the practice in France. In remote ages, the only method of preventing the multiplication of noxious animals was to offer rewards for the capture and destruction of wild beasts, and in France a regular department used to be kept up for the extinction of wolves and other destructive animals. The same question must be settled in India, and he trusted that the subject was either now occupying the attention of the Government of India, or that it would be brought under its consideration by the Secretary of State.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, his noble Friend (Lord Napier) had done a public service by directing attention to the loss of life among the natives of India by wild beasts. It was a matter of the greatest public importance
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  and he regretted that he was unable to assure his noble Friend that any particular or special means of preventing these losses and sufferings were at present under the consideration of the Government of India. According to the latest Returns, the number of persons who lost their lives by wild beasts was alarming and extraordinary, and the casualties were of such a nature as to make it almost imperative on the part of that Government to turn their earnest attention to the subject. As long ago as 1864 a despatch was sent to India requesting, the Government to look into the question, but no answer had been received to that despatch up to the present time. He proposed sending out another despatch, calling the attention of the Government of India to the first one, and urging the necessity of seeing after the matter. These Returns, however, for the future, would be systematically made, so that the subject would be kept in view. The last Return, which was that of 1871, showed that the extraordinary number of between 18,000 and 20,000 human beings in India lost their lives from wild beasts and snake bites, and that of these a very large proportion owed their deaths to tigers. It also appeared that there were extensive districts where cultivation was seriously impeded, and almost at a standstill, in consequence of the ravages of man-eating tigers. No doubt, the responsibility of the Government had been increased by the native disarmament which had followed the Indian Mutiny, but it was, notwithstanding, extraordinary that the people had not sufficient energy to go out and destroy these creatures. His noble Friend had made a suggestion that as there was a caste in India devoted to hunting, they should be formed into a corps who might be called Tiger Thugs. He was quite certain that if the Government announced its intention to form a hunting corps, for the destruction of wild beasts in India, they would be besieged with applications for enrolment in it. His noble Friend's suggestion, which was new to him, might be applicable to certain parts of India, and he would request the Viceroy to take the whole subject into his consideration.
  LORD LAWRENCEsaid, that the Government of India had, of course; been aware that great numbers of human beings—men, women, and children were

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  annually destroyed by wild animals, and that the evil had, to a certain extent, increased since the general disarmament of the population consequent upon the Mutiny, but he did not know that in any sense the Government of India could be said to be much to blame in the matter. For many years, handsome rewards had been allowed by the Government for the destruction of tigers, bears, wolves, &c.; but from some cause, which at present was not satisfactorily explained, it was clear that these animals were increasing in number. One point, however, deserved the attention of the Government. It was said, although he could hardly believe it, that in some cases English officers discouraged the extirpation of wild animals with the view of keeping the destruction of them in their own hands.

ARMY RE-ORGANIZATION.—MILITARY DEPOT AT OXFORD.

  ADDRESS FOR CORRESPONDENCE.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY,in moving for an Address for the production of Correspondence between the War Office and the Corporation of Oxford, or any other persons, concerning the purchase of a site for a Military Depôt, said, that at the end of last Session he pressed strongly upon the Government that a military centre should not be established at Oxford until the Tutors and Professors had had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon the subject, and he understood the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne) to agree that the decision of the Government should be put off until such an opinion had been expressed. In the autumn, as soon as the Tutors and Professors assembled, they drew up a Memorial, deprecating in the strongest terms the establishment of a military centre at Oxford, on the ground that it would interfere seriously with their work and increase the difficulty of maintaining efficient discipline. That Memorial, he presumed, the noble Marquess had seen. The signatures were headed by the names of Dr. Pusey and Dr. Jowett, and included those of eminent men of every school of thought in religion and politics, and probably so many men of such widely divergent views never before signed the same document, it being signed by 24 University Professors and 89 Tutors. When the question
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  was last before the House, it was treated as if it were a comparison between the respective merits of military and academical men. He never desired to put it in that light, or to oppose the Government in any spirit derogatory to the excellence of the discipline or morality of Her Majesty's Forces. Their barracks might be monasteries; association with them might be the one thing needed to stimulate study; and the population surrounding barracks might be distinguished by all the virtues, and, above all, by chastity; but the authorities of the University were judges of what was beneficial and what injurious to it, and for the War Office to oppose its opinion, was like an Archbishop quoting the opinion of Convocation on a question of military discipline. He should have thought no Administration would wish to incur the unpopularity of setting at naught the opinion of the great national University; and the Secretary of State for War had other reasons for refraining from this course. The Inspector General had reported against the eligibility of the site, which would jam up the centre in an extreme corner of the district. It was also curious to observe how the War Office had met another class of objectors. There was local opposition to barracks being built near two roads containing villas; and that local opposition prevailed, while the authorities of the University were disregarded. When he (the Marquess of Salisbury) suggested last year that Oxford had been selected as a military centre because Mr. Cardwell was Member for the City, the noble Lord opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne) warmly repelled the suggestion. Last winter, however, Mr. Cardwell went clown to the meeting of the Druids, and delivered his annual electioneering speech, and he actually put forward as one of the grounds for claiming the confidence of his constituents, that he had selected Oxford as a military centre, because of the connection of the regiment to be located there with the City of Oxford. It was done by the right hon. Member for Oxford in order to please the City of Oxford, and his Colleagues seemed to think that it was quite natural that an administrative power should be employed to purchase a constituency. ["Oh, oh!"] Well, if noble Lords opposite objected to purchase, he would say to conciliate a constituency.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The regiment is connected with Oxford.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Did the noble Lord mean to say that the 52nd Regiment cared about going to Oxford? However, that might be, he could not otherwise account for more importance being attached to the representations made by the right hon. Gentleman's constituents, to which he had referred, than to the united opposition of all the teaching authority of that great University. Some years ago, it was said—whether truly or falsely no matter, but falsely he believed—that a contract was given to conciliate the electors of Dover. A change of Ministry followed, and, by a strong departure from the ordinary practice, which was for a Ministry to regard the administrative Acts of its predecessors as sacred, the contract was revoked. On the same principle he believed that act of selecting Oxford as a military centre would not be respected by another Secretary for War, should there by any chance be a change of Government; and he for one should not deem himself precluded from asking the new Government to reverse the act of its predecessors. The University was, he thought, perfectly right in keeping the question open, and if any further opportunity should be afforded hereafter for obtaining a reversal of the policy from some future Minister of War, he wished it to be understood that he should not feel himself precluded from availing himself of it, by reason of his not taking further action under the existing Government.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copies of correspondence between the War Office and the Corporation of Oxford, or any other persons, concerning the purchase of a site for a Military Depôt.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) appeared to have forgotten that the War Office, in selecting sites for these depôt centres, was bound to search for certain conditions which were requisite to the carrying out of the scheme—conditions which were not easily found within a limited area. It was, in the first place, necessary that the site selected as a depot centre should be central in respect of the population from which the troops attached to the district were to be recruited;
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  secondly, that the railway communication between it and the rest of the country should be ample; thirdly, that the locality itself should be healthy, and generally suitable; fourthly, that it should if possible be a place in which the head-quarters of a Militia regiment had already been established. In Oxford every one of those conditions had been satisfied. It was upon those grounds that it had been selected, and it was not until the arrangements of the War Office in the matter had been somewhat matured that the opposition of the University had to be encountered, for it was late last year when the Memorial quoted by the noble Marquess had reached the Government. Nothing could be further from his intention than to say a word which was disrespectful towards those who had signed the Memorial, but it was a fact that, out of 25 Heads of Houses, only five had appended their signatures to it; and he might besides add that if, as the noble Marquess said, a military officer could not be a good judge as to what was suitable to academic discipline, a Professor of Moral Philosophy would be likely to have very crude ideas as to the result of the establishment of a military depôt under a system of which no experience existed, in a particular locality. As to the Report of Prince Edward of Saxe Weimar, although he had pointed out various difficulties with respect to obtaining a good site within two miles of Oxford, yet he had said nothing against the selection of Oxford as a depôt centre on general grounds, and the difficulties which had been raised in anticipation in the Report, with respect to the water supply and other matters, had been satisfactorily overcome, for the most part by arrangement with the Corporation of Oxford. He would remind the noble Marquess, too, that he had made no alternative suggestion as to where a depot centre for the district might be established on the present occasion, as he did on a former one, and that while disapproving Oxford he had not suggested to their Lordships another place in which the requisite qualifications were to be found. He had, he might add, no objection to the production of the Correspondence.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDremarked that Prince Edward of Saxe Weimar had not to discharge the duty of reporting whether Oxford was or was not,

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  in his opinion, a suitable site for a depôt centre, but whether a suitable place for the purpose could be found in the neighbourhood, and he found himself unable to recommend any site in the vicinity of that city except one at Woodstock. As to the objections raised on account of the want of a proper supply of gas, water, and the absence of an outflow for sewage, he found that "provisional" arrangements were to be made to meet those objections; but provisional arrangements, when the case was one concerning a large body of men, were most unsatisfactory, and he hoped the negotiations on the subject would end in their being of a more complete character.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he felt it his duty to declare that there was no foundation whatever for the odious imputation which the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) had made upon his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War—that in his selection of Oxford he had been actuated by a desire to conciliate his constituents at Oxford, and that when a Conservative Ministry should be in office he would endeavour to obtain a reversal of the policy.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYexplained that his meaning was, that whenever a Conservative Minister of War should be in office he should humbly approach him on this subject precisely as he would the present Minister for War. As to the odious motives spoken of by the noble Earl, they existed only in his own imagination. He did not impute any. Politicians did not generally regard it as an odious thing to conciliate their constituents. At the same time, he thought that a certain degree of reserve should be imposed in such a matter on a War Minister who also happened to be Member for the City of Oxford.
  EARL GRANVILLErepeated his opinion that an odious and disgraceful imputation had been made on his right hon. Friend, in suggesting that it was to curry favour with his constituents, and unmindful of the duties of his position, he had made a selection of Oxford as a military centre.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he was of opinion that the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) had taken his noble Friend (the Marquess of Salisbury)
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  to task with undue severity. He understood his noble Friend to have spoken of that, which, after all, was not an uncommon practice—namely, the natural interchange of what were termed good offices between a constituency and the person who represented them. However, he deprecated a question of that kind, so important to the University, being diverted into that channel. Even assuming Oxford to be the best military centre, the Government were also bound to take into account the representations of those who were responsible for the teaching and the discipline of the University. There never was a Memorial, in which men representing so many different departments of learning concurred in expressing with one voice a more decided opinion, than that in which the conviction was stated that the establishment of a military centre at Oxford was calculated to interfere with the discipline and conduct of the University.
  THE BISHOP OF OXFORD,as a near resident, must say that the proposed military centre was a subject on which there existed the most complete unanimity, as far as he knew, among the University authorities against fixing its site so near to that great institution. He regretted that no pains appeared to have been taken to answer the objections made on behalf of the University. As a matter of common sense and ordinary experience, he thought the immediate proximity of a military centre was not, on the whole, favourable to morality, or to those interests which a great educational body had at heart.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEexplained that the opposition to the establishment of that military centre seemed to be based on the idea that Oxford was about to be turned into a garrison town, whereas in fact there would be there only some 15 officers, 50 or 60 old soldiers, and about 200 recruits under severe training.
  LORD REDESDALEheld that a representation coming from either of two such great national institutions as Oxford or Cambridge ought to have received the utmost attention from the Government.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYpointed out that there were other Universities in the kingdom besides those of Oxford and Cambridge, which were near military centres, and no harm had come of the connection. He had never heard that

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  Trinity College, Dublin, had suffered from the presence in the Irish capital of a garrison of even some 4,000 or 5,000. A more fantastic notion had never entered the head of any man than the misapprehension entertained by the learned Professors who had signed that Memorial, and he would remind their Lordships that not very many years ago the University of Oxford had an extreme objection to the making of a railway to that city, being persuaded that it would put an end to the discipline of the University.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.