Lords Sitting of 20 June 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Ecclesiastical Commissioners* (170).
Second Reading—Local Government Board (Ireland) Provisional Order Confirmation (No. 2)* (115); Local Government Provisional Orders (Nos. 5 and 6)* (154, 157).
Select Committee—Report—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (No. 1)* (68) [No. 166]; Metropolitan Commons Supplemental* (110); Canonries* (83) [No. 168].
Committee—Report—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Nos. 4, 5, and 6)* (149, 151, 152); Grand Jury Presentments (Ireland)* (158).
Report—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (No. 1)* (68–167); Canonries* (83–169).
Third Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (Nos. 2, 3, and 4)* (135, 142, 143), and passed.

VISIT OF THE SHAH OF PERSIA. THE REVIEW IN WINDSOR PARK.

  QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDwished to know, Whether it was intended that their Lordships should sit on Tuesday next? The Review at Windsor on that day would not commence till 5 o'clock, and those of their Lordships who intended to be present could not possibly attend the meeting of the House. He wished to know if the Government had considered the probability of their having a poor attendance in the House on that evening, and whether it would not be as well to decide that there should be no sitting?
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he could not answer the Question, but his noble Friend (Earl Granville) would be present before their Lordships adjourned, and would be able to give the desired information.
  LORD REDESDALEsuggested that there should be no sitting on Monday. Many of their Lordships desired to be present at the Naval Review on that day, which would prevent them attending the House. He should be glad to be informed on that point.
  At the close of the sitting,

VISIT OF THE SHAH OF PERSIA—NAVAL REVIEW AT SPITHEAD.

  QUESTION.
  LORD CHELMSFORDinquired whether it was the intention of the Govern-

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  ment to move an adjournment over Monday next, on which day the Naval Review in honour of the Shah would be held.
  EARL GRANVILLEobserved that there was but one Motion of importance on the Paper for that day. He did not know whether his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale) intended to bring it forward.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he should certainly do so in the event of the House meeting.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the matter was in the hands of their Lordships. He should be guided by the opinions that might be expressed in reference to it.
  No noble Lord rising,
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he should make the usual Motion for adjourning till Monday.

  ARMY—CANDIDATES FOR COMMISSIONS.—QUESTIONS.
  LORD VIVIANasked, What steps are taken to ascertain the character of gentlemen who apply to be examined for direct commissions in the Army; and whether any, and, if so, what means are taken to prevent those who have been expelled from public institutions from entering into competition? He feared that the system of examination would exclude many excellent men from the Army; but while it did exist he thought it was for the Government to give a pledge that at least it should be so carried out as to insure the best men being obtained. He understood that in a recent examination there were 600 candidates for 80 commissions. Some of the persons who presented themselves were, he was told, very "rough diamonds," who, no doubt, might be knocked into shape in the service. Two of them, he was told, had been dismissed from the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich. He hoped that this last statement was incorrect, for it would be strange that gentlemen dismissed—probably for drunkenness or grave insubordination—from that institution, and consequently excluded from the Artillery, should be allowed to serve in the Line. For Line service, men of high moral character, energy, and determination were required; but he feared that such were not the men who were coming in for examination under the existing arrangement. The best thing, he be-
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  lieved, would be to revert to the Commander-in-Chief's List, and to let the responsibility fall on him. He feared that if anybody were allowed to compete, the Army would eventually become unfit for any gentleman to enter.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, in reply to the noble and gallant Lord's first Question, that paragraph 13 of the regulations for first appointments required a certificate of good moral character from the clergyman of the parish in which the candidate had recently resided, or from the head of the College or school where he had been educated during the two preceding years, or some other satisfactory proof of good moral character. As to the second Question, the phrase "public institutions" was ambiguous—he presumed it referred to public military institutions. With respect to them, it had always been the practice to report every case of expulsion from Woolwich to the Commander-in-Chief—in fact, the expulsion could not take place without his authority. Cases of removal, which had always been distinct from expulsion, being the result of some minor irregularity or possibly of inability to comply with the educational requirements of the place, should be similarly reported, and were also dealt with by the Commander-in-Chief. In the two cases referred to by the noble and gallant Lord, the Office papers did not show that any such notification was made at the time—an omission which would not occur again. As to public institutions of a non-military character, His Royal Highness's opportunities of obtaining information were not equally good; but it was in contemplation to insert a rule requiring a candidate to mention the school or place of instruction which he had attended since the age of 12; so that should His Royal Highness think further inquiries into the antecedents of any candidate necessary, he might have full opportunities of doing so. His Royal Highness was now—as he had always been—the arbiter of the fitness of any gentleman for a commission in the Queen's forces, and his facilities for determining it had not been diminished by the changes recently made.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDasked, Whether His Royal Highness had the option of refusing permission to go up to be examined?
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEreplied, that if His Royal Highness deemed any candidate unfit to serve the Queen, no one could question his right to withdraw him from the competition.
  LORD VIVIANbelieved the two gentlemen referred to had passed the examination among the first candidates. Would they get their commissions, or could His Royal Highness refuse them as unfit?
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, both cases, neither of which were cases of expulsion, were now under the consideration of His Royal Highness.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYasked, Whether the Commander-in-Chief could object to a man who had passed the examination as one of the first 80?
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEapprehended His Royal Highness had such a right.
  EARL GREYsaid, that since the responsibility of selecting candidates had ceased to rest directly with the Commander-in-Chief, there was reason to fear that lees care than formerly had been exercised. He deprecated the lowering of the high character hitherto borne by British officers, and hoped that in any revision of the Rules it would be distinctly laid down that no man had a right to go up for these competitive examinations who could not satisfy the Commander-in-Chief that he was in all respects an eligible person for admission into the British Army. A written certificate was often of small value, being written very often by a man with little knowledge of the candidates.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, it was a duty of the military authorities to ascertain beforehand, as far as possible, the moral character and general acquirements of a candidate; and he had the power, which he exercised with every discretion, of rejecting any unfit man. It was, however, an extremely difficult and delicate matter to find out the exact character of young gentlemen; and in the two cases referred to by his noble and gallant Friend (Lord Vivian), anything more perfect than they were represented to be could not be conceived. This showed the necessity of great care; and if by accident a candidate's unfitness occasionally escaped discovery, it would be no fault of the authorities, if they could help it, but would be one of the accidents attending competitive examina-
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  tions. Removal and expulsion were frequently confounded—but, in fact, they were very different things, for the former might be necessary in the interests of discipline for a very trivial offence, and it would be hard to exclude a man whose subsequent behaviour was good from the public service. In other cases removal almost amounted to expulsion and ought to be a disqualification. He regretted the occurrence of these cases, and trusted that in any future case of removal a repetition of this unfortunate error would be avoided.

ARMY—CONTROL DEPARTMENT—AUTUMN MANŒUVRES, 1872—REPORTS.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND THE DUKE OF RICHMOND rose to ask the Under Secretary of State for the War Department Whether any Reports were made by Lieutenant General Sir Robert Walpole, Lieutenant General Sir John Michel, and the Generals commanding Divisions, upon the working of the Control Department during the last Autumn Manœuvres; and, if so, to move an Address for their production. As had been stated at the time they were proposed, the Autumn Manœuvres were designed to serve as schools of instruction and to test the efficiency of every arm of the service. It therefore was important to know whether the Control Department—an important feature in Mr. Cardwell's re-organization of the Army—had proved efficient at at present constituted. What he desired to ascertain was the working of the Department, and whether it was likely to be efficient in time of war as proved by its efficiency in time of peace. The Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, in his interesting Report on the last Manœuvres, had spoken of the whole arrangements as more or less tentative, and had commended the zeal and attention of the officers of the Control Department. But without disparaging His Royal Highness's opportunities of seeing what occurred—he had himself said he frequently knew no more of what was going on than a casual spectator—it was obvious that the Generals commanding the various forces and their Brigadiers could give a more detailed account of the working of the

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  Department than the Commander-in-Chief. The only subordinate officer, however, who in the published Report had been allowed to give his version of the proceedings was Mr. Maturin, a subordinate officer of the Control Department, who, alluding to reports that there had been inconvenient delays on the part of his Department in the supply of provisions and forage said, he had made inquiries which had shown that they were unfounded, and that he had much satisfaction in referring to the "favourable opinion expressed by the General Officers of Divisions, &c., as to the proceedings of this Department." Now, what might satisfy Mr. Controller Maturin might fail to satisfy their Lordships, and it would create a bad precedent to allow a public officer to refer to the opinions of other officers and to refuse the production of those opinions. He hoped, therefore, these Reports would be laid on the Table.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, Sir Robert Walpole and Sir John Michel had reported to His Royal Highness on a great number of subjects, including the working of the Control Department. The Generals of Divisions had also reported to those two Generals, whose Reports, indeed, were founded on those of the General Officers. The object of the Manœuvres—the testing in time of peace the efficiency of our arrangements for war—rendered it necessary that everything should be freely reported upon by the General Officers in command of corps d'armée; but it would be impossible for this to be done with the requisite freedom if it were known to those by whom the Reports were prepared that they would be circulated as public documents. He believed the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief would support him in this view. With regard to the published Report of Mr. Controller Maturin, had he (Mr. Maturin) specially referred to the General Officers' Reports as expressing approval or disapproval of the system of the Control Department, he could not have objected to their production; but this was not the case, for Mr. Maturin's reference was to the efficiency of the Control officers, whose exertions had been spoken of with commendation by His Royal Highness in his Report. Indeed, Mr. Maturin's Report had, in the first instance been appended to that of His
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  Royal Highness and had been published as an integral part of the latter.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDthen moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies of the above Reports.
  LORD CAIRNSremarked that according to this doctrine, Controller Maturin had more power than the Members of Parliament, for no Minister of the Crown could state the purport of a document in the possession of the Government without producing it.
  EARL GRANVILLEcontended that as a Member of the Government he was at liberty to state that diplomatic Correspondence was in a certain direction without being bound to produce the whole of that Correspondence.
  LORD VIVIANhoped the noble Duke would press his Motion.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEapproved the principle of concentrating the great departments of supply; and remarked that many of the difficulties encountered by the Control Department, such as railways and horses, would not arise in time of war. He had heard various complaints showing that the Control Department had not always worked satisfactorily, and he could not see that any disadvantage would accrue to the public service if certain extracts from the Reports of General Michel and General Walpole, and from the Reports of Brigadiers if necessary, were laid before Parliament.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEhoped the Motion would not be pressed, for it was impossible to expect that officers would report frankly and unreservedly if their Reports were to be published; and, moreover, complaints really trifling would be supposed by the general public, lacking the knowledge necessary to to judge such points, to be important. He might have been in fault in publishing Mr. Controller Maturin's Report—and there was clearly no more reason for publishing this than the Reports of General Officers. The conduct of the officers of the Control Department was admirable, and no men could have shown more zeal; but there were, no doubt, shortcomings in the system, and many points would require amendment. It was important the shortcomings should be ascertained, in order that they might be remedied, and he believed the Control Department would by degrees be

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  brought into such a position that it would not encounter so many detractors as it certainly did at present.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that after what had fallen from the illustrious Duke he did not think he should be justified in pressing for the production of the Papers; but he was satisfied, from the course of the discussion, that he was quite justified in drawing their Lordships' attention to the subject—particularly as he found it required a great deal of persuasion to induce the Control Department to believe there was any possibility of their having any shortcomings. He had heard that the Control Department had not been a complete success during the Manœuvres, and that statement seemed to be confirmed by the fact, that the Under Secretary for War had declined to produce the Reports upon the subjects—if these Reports had been of a favourable character there would have been no difficulty about producing them. He hoped that for the future any document referred to in a published Report would be produced.
  LORD DE ROSsaid, that half the difficulties of the Control Department were attributable to the want of draught horses, and to the absurd and wasteful plan of converting cavalry horses into draught horses. This was like using blood horses in farming. It was unwise to attempt to save expense in such a way.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, that the impression produced on his mind was that great care and efficiency had been shown by the Control Department in connection with the Autumn Manœuvres, both in the preparations beforehand and in the actual practice in the field.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEexplained that the objection he had taken was to the principle of the production of the Papers—an objection entirely borne out by what had fallen from the illustrious Duke.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn).

ARMY—ABOLITION OF PURCHASE—MEMORIALS OF OFFICERS.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND THE DUKE OF RICHMOND rose to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Return of the number of officers
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  of the army who have memorialised His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief with reference to their position and prospects consequent upon the abolition of purchase; and for, Copies of all letters from the generals commanding districts forwarding the said memorials."
  He had, he said, on a former occasion called attention to the existence of a feeling of discontent among officers of the Army resulting from the manner in which the abolition of purchase had been carried out. He believed, indeed, that he had rather under-stated than over-stated the extent of that feeling. He believed that a feeling of discontent now pervaded the whole Army, arising from the position in which they were placed by that great change. There was not a mess-room in the entire service in which the position of the officers was not freely criticized, and the conduct of the Government commented upon in no very flattering terms. In such an important body as the officers of the Army, it was a most unsatisfactory state of things that that feeling should exist. When he previously brought the subject under the notice of the House, His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief pointed out how the grievances of the officers were to be brought under his consideration. He believed the number of those who had sent in their claims was very large; and it was in justification of what he had stated on a former occasion that he had put his present Motion on the Paper. He did not ask for what the officers said, nor for their specific complaints; but, in the first instance, for the number of those who deemed themselves aggrieved by the alteration of the law. He must observe that there was not a single Member of the Government connected with the War Department during the passage of that Bill who did not, on more occasions than one, point out that the position of the officers was to be no worse than it was before purchase was abolished. Therefore it was but natural, when purchase was abolished and officers found their position was now really worse, that discontent should prevail in the Army. He did not ask how it was proposed to deal with that question; but of this he was perfectly certain that a departmental inquiry would not satisfy the officers of the Army. He ventured to say that nothing would satisfy the officers or the country unless Her Majesty was gra-

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  ciously pleased to issue a Royal Commission of inquiry into the subject, composed of thoroughly impartial and competent persons in whom both the service and the public would have confidence. If a Royal Commission so constituted were appointed, and their decision was adverse in many cases to the officers, still the officers would feel that they had had a fair inquiry, and that, however much they might dislike the result, they were bound to be satisfied with it. On these grounds he hoped the Government would recommend Her Majesty to issue such a Commission.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Return of the number of officers of the army who have memorialised His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief with reference to their position and prospects consequent upon the abolition of purchase; and for, Copies of all letters from the generals commanding districts forwarding the said memorials.—(The Duke of Richmond.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, that he was anxious not to withhold from the noble Duke the information which could be legitimately given to him that he would not resist his Motion for the Return.
  THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORDsaid, he had never in the whole course of his long service seen anything like the feeling of discomfort and dissatisfaction which now existed among the officers of the Army. There prevailed a strong distrust of the War Office, not of the Horse Guards, for they respect the Commander-in-Chief and were as well inclined as ever to obey all military authority. When last year Lord Abinger moved in the most temperate manner for an Address to the Crown praying for a Commission to inquire into the case of 600 old captains, who were to be superseded by Artillery and Engineer officers, there was a majority—though he admitted a small one—on that occasion. Nevertheless, the Government ignored that majority entirely, and the warrant came out superseding those 600 old captains. The War Office have now restored 200—or one-third—of those old officers to their proper places exactly in the way the noble and gallant Lord asked to be done—and though it was true that even one-third of a loaf was better than no bread, the officers naturally felt much annoyed and disgusted with the inconsiderate conduct of the Se-
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  cretary of State. Another small incident which lately occurred also showed what was being done, and how the Army was being taken out of the hands of the Horse Guards and placed under civilians. On the 1st of March last the official Army List was expected. What must have been the feelings of the officers when, on opening The Army List, they saw at its head, instead of the venerated name of the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, the name of the Right Hon. Edward Cardwell, Secretary of State! He could only say that his blood boiled to see it, and that feeling, he believed, was participated in by a great part of the Army. Colonel Hart, with the true feeling of a soldier, put the name of Her Majesty as commanding Her own Army, and he hoped that example would in future be followed in official Army Lists. He had no feeling against the Secretary for War. On the contrary, he had a great admiration of many of his qualities, knowing the pains he had taken to make himself acquainted with the Army and to grapple with many difficulties; still he could not but think that the right hon. Gentleman was very ignorant and regardless of the feelings of the officers. The Government would, he trusted, very soon grant a Royal Commission, for he was convinced that nothing short of that would be satisfactory to either the officers or the men of the Army.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDexpressed a hope that the Return would soon be laid on the Table. The Session was passing away, and it was very desirable to ascertain without delay the views and intentions of Her Majesty's Government.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEassured the noble Duke that the Returns would soon be in their Lordships' hands, and that a full opportunity would be given them of considering the intentions of the Government.
  Motion agreed to.

  ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for amending the Ecclesiastical Commissioners Acts 1840 and 1850, and for other purposes—Was presented by The LORD PRESIDENT; read 1a. (No. 170.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.