Lords Sitting of 19 June 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Law Agents (Scotland)* (163); Indian Railways Registration* (164).
Second Reading—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Nos. 4, 5, and 6)* (149, 151, 152); Thames Embankment (Land)* (137); Grand Jury Presentments (Ireland)* (158).
Committee—Agricultural Children (102–165).
Committee—Report—Local Government Provisional Orders (Nos. 2, 3, and 4)* (135, 142, 143).
Third Reading—Vagrants Law Amendment* (130); Fairs* (131), and passed.

VISIT OF THE SHAH OF PERSIA—THE NAVAL REVIEW AT SPITHEAD.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNthought it might be for the convenience of their Lordships if he were to state that His Majesty the Shah of Persia would leave London for Portsmouth at

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  8.30 on Monday morning, and would reach Portsmouth about 10.30. A.M. A vessel, The Simoom, had been set apart for such of their Lordships as might desire to attend the naval review, which would leave the Dockyard at 9.30; and he believed arrangements were being made in connection with the House for a special train. The tickets, which would be issued by the Admiralty to-morrow, would not be transferable. The Admiralty were anxious to consult their Lordships' wishes as to ladies, and a certain number of tickets would be provided; but much would, of course, depend on how many of their Lordships put down their names as intending to go, and he should be glad if any Peer who did not wish to take a lady with him would intimate the fact. In any case, no more than one lady would be allowed to accompany a noble Lord.

VISIT OF THE SHAH OF PERSIA—THE MILITARY REVIEW AT WINDSOR.

  QUESTION.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEwished to know whether any provision was to be made for the accommodation of the carriages of Peers at the reviews at Windsor and at Woolwich?
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, space would be set apart for the carriages of their Lordships at the Windsor review, and His Royal Highness the Ranger of Windsor Forest, in whose hands the arrangements were, had been pleased to forward tickets for distribution among their Lordships. The review at Woolwich was to be one of a less formal character, and he was not aware of any special facilities for Members of either House of Parliament.

  AGRICULTURAL CHILDREN BILL.
  (The Lord Henniker.)

  (NO. 102.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Interpretation).
  LORD HENNIKERmoved an Amendment, by which the definition of "child" was altered from a child under 13 years of age to 12 years. Under the alteration no person could employ a child between the ages of 8 and 10, unless the parent should produce a certificate
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  declaring that the child had completed 250 school attendances within the preceding 12 months, and between the ages of 10 and 12 that the child had completed 150 attendances. As originally drawn the age was fixed at 12, but was altered to 13 by the House of Commons.
  Amendment moved, line 16, to leave out ("thirteen") and insert ("twelve"). (The Lord Henniker).
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONopposed the Amendment. As the Bill stood agricultural children ceased to be affected by it at 13 years of age, which he did not think was too long to require attendance at school. The practical effect of the Bill was that the child was released from the necessity of school attendance a year earlier than the age stated; because as the obligation to produce the certificate as a condition for employment ceased at 13, the obligation of school attendance did not operate after the age of 12. A child might, consequently, be employed after the completion of his 12th year upon producing a certificate of 150 attendances between his 11th and 12th year. The alteration, in his opinion, would render the Bill almost useless.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDquestioned the accuracy of the construction placed upon the clause by the noble Marquess, and hoped his noble Friend (Lord Henniker) would adhere to his Amendment. It was necessary that in a measure restricting the employment of agricultural labour the prohibition should not be too stringent. It was essential that boys should be brought up to agricultural labour at a very early age—their earnings were of great importance to the parents, and at some periods of the year labour of this description was essential to the employers. Any prohibitions, therefore, that would materially affect these objects would be unpopular with both; and it was only by the co-operation of the farmers that a measure of this description could work.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that under the clause as it stood, a boy within a week of his 13th birthday would be unable to accept employment if he could not show 250 school attendances within the previous 12 months. By making the prohibition too stringent they would endanger the successful working of the measure, for its success

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  would in a great degree depend upon the goodwill of the parties interested on both sides, and it was therefore necessary to make its provisions as little onerous as possible.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYthought the change proposed unadvisable. He believed that its effect in many cases would be that which his noble Friend the Lord President had described.
  After some discussion, which was imperfectly audible,
  On Question, agreed to.
  Amendment made.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 5 (Prohibition of employment of children under eight years in agricultural work) agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Restriction on employment of children above eight years in agricultural work).
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYmoved an Amendment, line 3, after ("twelve months") insert ("Such child was ill for a period exceeding thirty days, or that"); and at end of clause add—
  ("Provided, that if it be proved to the satisfaction of a court of summary jurisdiction in any petty sessional division that there are any special reasons which make the application of the provisions of this section to any particular child unjust or inexpedient, such court may if it thinks fit issue a license to such child's parent excepting him from the said provisions for a period not exceeding six months: Provided also, that this section shall not apply to agricultural employment connected with the hay harvest, the corn harvest, or the gathering of hops.")
  Their Lordships would readily conceive that there were a great number of cases in humble life which would afford reasonable cause for the detention of children from school, but which would not come under the Proviso of the clause—which was confined to the simple excuse of there being no school to which the child could be sent. The noble Marquess pointed out that a similar discretionary power was given by the Elementary Education Act to School Boards.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, the Government had no desire to make the Bill more stringent than it need be. He thought that a Proviso making some "unavoidable cause" sufficient would meet the view of the noble Marquess.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he preferred "reasonable" to "unavoid-
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  able." But he thought the clause was already too long, and would suggest that it should be divided into two, one of which could deal more fully with the question of excuses.
  After some conversation,
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, he would endeavour to frame a satisfactory clause, and would bring it up on the Report.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Certificate of school attendances to be given on application of parent) agreed to.
  Clause 8 (Power to suspend temporarily restrictive provisions of Act) struck out.
  Clause 9 (Persons employing children in contravention of Act to be deemed guilty of offence against Act.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDmoved, after Clause 8, to insert the following clause:—
  "The provisions of this Act with respect to the employment of children shall not apply in the case of any child who has obtained from one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools, from the Diocesan Inspector of Schools, or from the Rural Dean of the rural deanery in which the parish to which such child belongs is situated, a certificate under his hand to the effect that such child has reached a standard equivalent to the fourth standard of the new code of regulations of the Education Department, made on the twenty-eighth day of February 1873."
  At present the standard of qualification was a perpetually varying quantity, for the Education Department were constantly raising the standard, and it was therefore necessary to specify the particular degree of proficiency which should secure exemption.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONobjected to the Amendment as not in conformity with the Act of 1870, which intrusted the test of proficiency to Her Majesty's Inspectors only. If they were to go upon the principle of having those certificates, it must be done through Her Majesty's Inspectors. There would be difficulties in the way of imposing that duty on the other functionaries who had been suggested. Again, if, in addition to the requirements of the Education Department, they took another and altogether distinct standard, they would involve themselves in the inconvenience of having two examinations, and would also inflict some hardship on the children.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that if "Her Majesty's Inspector" was to

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  remain in the clause it would be practically a dead letter, because that officer would not have time to examine the boys who were to go to work. A boy who had not attained a certain standard on the day the Inspector went round might do so a month or two afterwards; but he would have to wait a twelvemonth until the Inspector's next examination before he would be entitled to get employment. He would not object, however, to the words "Her Majesty's Inspector," with this addition—"or, failing him, some person deputed by him."
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHwould prefer to see that provision omitted altogether, and a certain continuous and gradual amount of instruction made compulsory up to a certain age.
  THE BISHOP OF CARLISLEobserved that the duties of the Diocesan Inspectors were entirely confined to the religious inspection of the schools, and they had nothing whatever to do with the standards prepared by the Education Department.
  EARL FORTESCUEthought it on the whole more desirable to give the children a right to be employed as soon as they had attained a certain standard of proficiency, instead of making the acquisition of knowledge a secondary point, and attendance at school a primary one.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONaccepted the suggestion that the words "or by some person deputed by him" be added after "Her Majesty's Inspector."
  LORD HENNIKERobserved that the clause was nearly the same as the Amendment he had on the Paper and was taken chiefly from the bye-laws of the London School Board. The proposed standard was one which most children of 9 or 10 years of age could reach, and his object was that children under that age should not come under the operation of the clause.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he was altogether opposed to the stereotyping of the standard of education, and moved as an Amendment that the standard under the Bill should be that prescribed for the time being by the Minutes of the Education Department in reference to the Parliamentary grant. If the Amendment were not adopted there should be a double examination of the children, one for the Parliamentary grant and another for the purposes
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  of the Act, if this Bill were to become law.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, the Amendment would place in the hands of a Department of the Government the right to prescribe the conditions on which a child might earn its bread. He hoped their Lordships would not depute such a power to the Committee of Council on Education.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONdenied that he had made any such claim on behalf of the Education Department. He asked for nothing by the Amendment which Parliament had not sanctioned by the Act of 1870.
  THE BISHOP OF CARLISLEsupported the Amendment.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHthought that an examination which would qualify a child for the Parliamentary grant ought to be regarded as sufficient for the purposes of this Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHthought that the Amendment would give to the Government the power of making the clause entirely nugatory. It would give to the Education Department—or rather to the body of secretaries, clerks, and commissioners, of whom it was really composed—a prerogative which now belonged to Parliament alone.
  Amendment agreed to.
  After further short debate, Clause (by leave) withdrawn; and new Clause moved and agreed to, as follows:—
  Clause 8 (Cases in which provisions of Act shall not apply.)
  "The provisions of this Act with respect to the employment of children shall not apply in the case of any child who has obtained from one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools, or from some person to be deputed by him for that purpose, a certificate under his hand, to the effect that such child has reached the fourth standard of education as prescribed by the Minute of the Education Department for the time being in force with respect to the Parliamentary Grant, or such other standard as may from time to time be fixed for the purpose of this Act by Minute of the Education Department."
  Remaining Clauses and Schedule agreed to with Amendments.
  The Report of the Amendment to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 165.)

NORTH AMERICA—ALASKA BOUNDARY—SAN JUAN WATER BOUNDARY.

  QUESTIONS.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEasked, What arrangement has been made to settle the water boundary line between the British Territory and Alaska; 2. If British subjects are to be paid for property taken from them on the Island of San Juan; 3. If the channels to the eastward of the Haro are open to British ships without let or hindrance; also the right of fishing. With regard to his first Question—that relating to the water boundary line—in the chart contained in the Blue-Book which had been laid on the Table of the House, the boundary was clearly defined, and he had nothing to say on that point, except so far as the navigation was concerned. It was equally essential that the navigation boundary should be distinctly laid down. He considered that the water boundary could be easily settled without arbitration—at least, he hoped so. At the present moment it might appear that this was not a matter of much consequence, but gold had been discovered up one of the rivers in this region, and it was highly probable that before long the exact water boundary would be a very important consideration. Since he had put his second Question on the Paper a Proclamation had been issued by the President of the United States making it known that the Government of that country would satisfy all just claims of British subjects. It was not, therefore, necessary that he should put that Question. He attached much importance to the third Question. The Haro Channel, was not navigable by sailing vessels, except when towed by steamers, there being a shoal in the middle of it. No doubt the United States of America would offer no objection to the passage of British ships in these waters, but he thought it would be well to have some definite arrangement respecting them. It was also very important that the right of fishing should be clearly defined.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the noble Earl had made much more difficulty about the water boundary than really existed. The Treaty with the United States settled the boundary generally with regard to the British possessions and Alaska, and a Bill had been
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  introduced into Congress last Session appointing a Commission for the purpose of making arrangements as to the water boundary. Owing to the pressure of business, however, that Bill did not pass. The noble Earl, after the Proclamation issued by the President—and he had not since heard anything at variance with it—was right in not pressing for an answer to the second Question. With respect to the third Question, the boundary was defined by the Treaty to be in the middle of a certain channel. Unfortunately, the Treaty was not clear and precise in the definition which channel was intended, and under the Treaty of Washington the Emperor of Germany gave it as his award that the channel in question was the Haro Channel. He did not suppose there would be any impediment to the navigation of the eastward channels by British ships, but they were American waters. As to the Haro Channel, it was open to the ships of both countries.

  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION—ENGLISH AND SCOTCH CODES.—QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF BRISTOLrose to call attention to the minute of the Lords of the Committee of Privy Council on Education, dated 22d May 1873, establishing a code of regulations for Scotland; and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they will take steps to amend the English code by adding thereto similar provisions to those contained in article 19A. (3) and in article 21 of the Scotch code, so as to place the elementary schools of both countries on an equal footing as respects the aid to be derived from the Parliamentary grant? The noble Marquess, who was very imperfectly heard, was understood to state as his reason for bringing the subject under their Lordships' notice, that by the Minute of 1873 the Scotch schools were placed in a more advantageous position than the English schools; and he thought that this inequality should be redressed.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he would remind his noble Friend that one of the main arguments adduced by the noble Lords opposite, and by some also on that side of the House, in the discussions on the Scotch Education Bill last year was that the state of education in Scotland was exceptional, and that on that account certain arrangements ought

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  to be made and prescribed by Act of Parliament in order—as the Act recited—"to keep up and maintain the existing state of education" in that country—particularly in what were called the higher branches. It was notorious that things were taught in parochial schools in Scotland which would not be thought of in English schools, and the Scotch were desirous that this system should not be interfered with. So jealous, indeed, were they on this point, that a special provision that the standard of education should not be lowered was inserted in the Act. Again, by an Amendment introduced in that House it was provided that the Scotch Education Board in Edinburgh should have the right to prepare and propose a Code for the consideration of the Scotch Education Department in London. This they had done with great ability. The Department in London had been able to agree with them as to the provisions to be introduced, while the Education Board in Edinburgh were very well contented with the modifications made in the proposals they sent up. There had been no system in Scotland similar to that which existed in this country, but the differences between the two systems were less now than they had ever been before. To the statement of his noble Friend that some of the arrangements made by the Minute of 1873 were more favourable to the Scotch than to the English schools, he would remark that other arrangements in different directions were more favourable to the latter. The express provisions in the Act of Parliament with regard to the higher branches of instruction would, he thought, enable the schools in Scotland where those higher branches of education were taught to earn more money. On the other hand, a deputation who waited on his right hon. Friend Mr. Forster the other day asserted that it would be difficult for Scotch schools to earn as much as could be earned by schools in England. This was a remarkable instance of the difficulty of ascertaining beforehand whether more or less could be made under the provisions of a particular Code. He could not promise to introduce the specific provisions of the Scotch Code into the English Code; and if he were to do so, without making other changes, the Scotch would immediately cry out against being excluded from certain provisions
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  of the English Code. When the time arrived—as it did from year to year—to reconsider the Codes, it would be the duty of the Department to avail itself of the experience of both countries; but it would be most inexpedient to make a sudden change in the middle of the educational year. The managers of schools looked forward to changes being made at regular periods when it was known that the Codes came under consideration, and it would be most inconvenient to make a change in the middle of the school year. He could give no pledge except that the whole question should be considered from time to time in the light of experience. The allowance for special subjects under the Scotch Code was founded upon the express words of the Act of Parliament which required the Department to take special measures for meeting the demand for a higher class of education in Scotland.
  House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.