Lords Sitting of 29 July 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Endowed Schools Act (1869) Amendment* (253); Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment* (254); Defence Acts Amendment * (255); Conspiracy Law Amendment* (256).
Second Reading—Penalties (Ireland)* (242); Elementary Education Act (1870) Amendment, &c. (243); Langbaurgh Coroners* (248).
Report—Salmon Fisheries* (249); Metropolitan Tramways Provisional Orders* (229).
Third Reading—Petitions of Right (Ireland)* (233); Revising Barristers* (244); Extradition Act (1870) Amendment* (235); Turnpike Acts Continuance, &c.* (245), and passed. Withdrawn—Pollution of Rivers (230).

HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE DUKE OF EDINBURGH.—THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE.
Her Majesty's most gracious Message of yesterday considered (according to Order).
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I rise to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to thank Her Majesty for the most gracious communication which it has pleased Her Majesty to make to this House of the intended marriage between His Royal Highness Alfred Ernest Albert, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Kent, Earl of Ulster, Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe Coburg and Gotha, and Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, the only daughter of His Majesty the Emperor of all the Russias, and to assure Her Majesty that this House, always feeling the most lively interest in any event which can contribute to the happiness of the Royal Family, will concur in the measures which may be proposed for the consideration of the House, to enable Her Majesty to make a further provision for His Royal Highness on this occasion. My Lords, this is not the first occasion on which I have had to ask your Lordships to agree to a Motion such as this, and past experience enables me to anticipate that your Lordships will now give expression to the same feelings of satisfaction that you have invariably manifested on previous similar occasions. In the first place, your Lordships' House, as well as the other House of Parliament and the country at large, has always evinced a lively satisfaction in anything calculated to promote the happiness of Her Majesty and of the Members of her Family. In the second place, your Lordships have always felt the more pleasure in returning a humble Answer in response to a similar communication from Her Majesty, because of the fact that, in reference to the marriages of their children, the Queen and the Prince Consort always proceeded on the principle that they should be marriages of mutual affection, and that precedent has been
1160
faithfully observed on the present occasion. I believe I need hardly mention how young the Duke of Edinburgh was when he first conceived the hope of this union; and, my Lords, the basis on which the negotiations for this marriage were conducted by Her Majesty and the Emperor of Russia was, that the proposed union was based upon mutual affection, and of such a character as to promise happiness to both. That this is the case in the present instance there is no doubt. Formerly, much importance was attached to marriages made with political objects; but your Lordships are aware that such unions have but rarely resulted ill accomplishing the political objects for which they were intended, and certainly we are aware how little in these days alliances between Royal Families affect the policy of nations. There can, however, be no doubt that it is for the interest of both Russia and England that the two countries should be on good terms; and there have not been wanting proofs of the desire of His Majesty the Emperor of Russia .to maintain friendly relations with this nation. Although, however, I do not think that this bears in any degree on the question of this marriage, it is, my Lords, a fortunate circumstance that in this instance, all circumstances combine to render the marriage one on which we can sincerely offer our congratulations to Her Majesty. With these few remarks, my Lords, I beg to move the Address.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in the absence of my noble Friend the Duke of Richmond, I beg to second the Address which has been moved by the noble Earl. I am sure that it will be acceded to most cordially by your Lordships, because whatever gives pleasure to Her Majesty must also give pleasure to every class of her people, by whom she is so much beloved. His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh is well known for his abilities—he is popular for his personal qualifications, and on account of his connection with a popular profession—and the prospect of happiness which he has in this marriage will give unfeigned satisfaction to all classes of Her Majesty's subjects. Of course it is impossible not to concur in what the noble Earl says respecting Royal matrimonial alliances. I quite agree that they do not, as in past times,

1161
affect the policy of this country—that is to say, I believe it is true that they can never again be the means of dragging this country into war. I am not, however, quite sure that they may not be the means of conducing to the maintenance of peace. No doubt, it is a matter of no slight congratulation that our Royal House is now connected with the Royal Houses of the three great nations—the Scandinavian, the Sclavonic, and the Teutonic—by which the policy of Europe is determined. I cannot help thinking that peoples who have learned to respect and love Members of our Royal Family will to some extent look less as strangers on those over whom that Royal Family has so prosperously reigned. On these grounds and from motives of personal regard and affection, as well as from motives of public policy, I believe this marriage to be one worthy of all felicitation, and I beg very heartily to second the Motion.
Then an humble Address of thanks and concurrence ordered nemine dissentiente to be presented to Her Majesty thereupon: The said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with white staves.

POLLUTION OF RIVERS BILL.—(No. 230.)
(The Duke of Northumberland.)

COMMITTEE.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDsaid, that at that late period of the Session he felt that the only course open to him was to move the discharge of the Order for Committee; but he would bring the subject under the notice of their Lordships next Session, if the Government did not introduce a measure of their own.
THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, the Government were considering the subject with a view to legislation next Session.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the question was an important one, and the difficulty was to know how a remedy could be applied to the evil. The Select Committee found that each locality was so different in its circumstances that it would be necessary to place in the hands of the Government the most extensive powers, so that, practically, they would have power to legis-
1162
late as they pleased in connection with the subject. That, however, was not a healthy state of things, inasmuch as it would be placing Government in a false position, and in one which Parliament itself ought to occupy. He believed that the proper course would be to appoint a body of conservators in each drainage district, giving them powers to act according to the peculiar circumstances of each. He thought it necessary to make these few suggestions, with the view of legislation on the matter next Session.
Motion agreed to; Order discharged; and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT (1870) AMENDMENT, &c. BILL.
(The Lord President.)

(No. 243.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, the object of the measure was to introduce into the educational system established in 1870 various practical Amendments, which experience of the working of the Act had shown to be required. There was much cause for congratulation in respect of the working of the Act of 1870—it had greatly stimulated educational efforts throughout the country. In 1869, before the passing of the Act, the number of schools was 14,404—in 1872, these had increased to no less than 17,056. In 1869 the number of scholars in schools receiving annual grants was 1,397,379; in 1872 it was 1,668,679. In the former year the number of certificated teachers was 11,752; in the latter it was 14,771. Then, the number of pupil teachers in 1869 was 12,357, and in 1872 was 21,297. In London, with a population of 3,266,987, the whole were under school boards and compulsory by-laws. Of 224 boroughs, containing a population of 6,531,892, no fewer than 103, containing a population of 5,241,762, were under school boards, and of these boroughs 80, with a population of 4,789,828, had compulsory by-laws. Of 14,082 civil parishes, with a population of 12,913,387, the number under school boards was 445, and these contained a population of 1,485,833. Of these parishes, 110, with a population of 869,534,

1163
were under compulsory by-laws. There were school boards for 40 per cent of the whole population, and 80 per cent of the borough population; and compulsory by-laws for 39 per cent of the whole population, and 74 per cent of the borough population. Up to the 26th of July, 1873, "first notices" were issued to 10,315 parishes, of which 4,170, or 40 per cent, were now sufficiently provided. About 3,000 more parishes remained to be dealt with, after taking into account those in London and the boroughs which were already under the school hoards. The number of "final notices" issued preparatory to the compulsory election of school boards was 228. In a very large proportion of those parishes in which a deficiency had been declared voluntary effort had undertaken to supply the deficiency declared in the notices. In 1872 voluntary effort did a great deal. It contributed £339,825 to meet building-fund grants, and £506,708 for annual maintenance. This latter item showed an increase of about £100,000 over the money paid by subscribers in 1869, which amounted to £406,125. Altogether very little short of £1,000,000 had been voluntarily contributed towards the cause of education which, but for such an effect, would have had to be provided by rates. He thought that, with those figures before them, their Lordships would be of opinion that the Education Department might, with good cause, congratulate themselves upon the success of 1870, and anticipate still greater success in the future. Neither on behalf of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Forster) nor for himself did he claim any praise in respect of the manner in which the details of that great measure had been worked out—much the larger portion of that praise was due to the permanent officials of the Education Department. On his own part, and that of his Colleagues, he took this opportunity of saying how great were their obligations to Sir Francis Sandford, the Secretary, and the other gentlemen of the Department who acted under the orders of the Committee of Council. Of their energy, ability, industry, tact, and what he might call their diplomatic skill, it would be difficult to speak in terms of too great praise. The Bill now before their Lordships would not introduce any very large or extensive changes. The 3rd clause was the only one involving
1164
any question of gravity. The Act of 1870 enabled school boards, by means of by-laws, to establish a system of compulsion in order to secure the attendance of children at school; but that system of compulsion could only be applied in parishes or boroughs where school boards existed. The figures he had already quoted showed that in 103 boroughs there were school boards, so that there were such boards for 80 per cent of the population; and that in only 445 of the civil parishes were there school boards and compulsory by-laws only in the case of 39 per cent of the population generally. Last year an Act was passed which established a system of compulsory education throughout Scotland. It could not be denied that the existence of such a system in Scotland contemporaneously with that of a system of partial compulsion in England was an anomalous state of things; but Her Majesty's Government, having given the matter an attentive consideration, came to the conclusion that it was desirable to wait for further experience in both countries, and in England to look for the present to other arrangements tending in the same direction as the Scotch system. They expected great results from a Bill which was now passing through the other House of Parliament, applying the principle of compulsion indirectly to children employed in agriculture—and this might be regarded as a step towards a general system of compulsion under what was known as Denison's Act. Boards of Guardians had power to provide for the education of out-door pauper children; but this power was permissive only, and not compulsory. About two-thirds of the Unions of the metropolis had put this power in force, and about one-half of those in the country. The 3rd clause .of the Bill now before their Lordships repealed the provisions of Denison's Act and substituted others in their stead—providing that where outdoor relief was given to the parents of any child between 5 and 13 years of age, or to any such child, it should be a condition for the continuance of such relief that elementary education should be given to the child; but there was a proviso in the clause that relief should not be granted or refused on condition of the child attending any public elementary school other than such as might be selected by the parent. This provision

1165
was one of great importance in regard to the fact that 145,000 of the children were either orphans or children of widows receiving out-door relief, and these, he thought, were a class eminently deserving of consideration in any educational measure; and he confidently expected that their Lordships would approve the principle on which the Government had acted in framing the 3rd clause, and would make no difficulty in passing the Bill.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
LORD LYTTELTONsaid, what was requisite on public grounds was that all children should be educated up to a certain point; but if the parent of a child were not able, out of his own means, to pay for that education of his child he should be required and enabled to provide the child with it as he would with food or any other necessaries of life, out of the poor rates, unless he were aided by private benevolence. But the question of the school-pence, as was well known, was not the most important point—the difficulty would arise not so much from the amount to be paid for the schooling as from the giving up of the earnings of the child. If a child who was earning money for the family were taken away from his work and sent to school, so much of the general means of support for the family was gone, and to the extent of that the rates must come in. If, therefore, there was to be compulsory education, a considerable increase in the rates must be looked for throughout the country.
EARL FORTESCUEconcurred with the noble Lord that the practical question was not so much the payment of the school-pence as the diminution of earnings. He felt satisfied that the facility with which in populous districts school boards might be imposed upon, in consequence of their not having, like the Guardians, any machinery for the detection of imposture, would have a pauperizing effect. He feared that the benefit of education to the children would in many cases be considerably counteracted by the demoralizing habits of successful imposture thus fostered in their parents. He looked upon the present system under which pupil-teachers almost all drawn from the wage class, were trained for an increasingly remune-
1166
rative calling at an expense of 75 per cent to the State and 15 per cent to charity, as utterly unsound. It would be much better as a general rule to allow those who wished to become teachers to bear the expense of their own training. In that way, after testing their competency, we should have some security that they would adhere to their profession. If we did this instead of eleemosynarily training an excessive number of pupil-teachers in order to make allowance for the diversion of a certain proportion to other professions, we might attract all that would be required by giving a pension for a specified number of years' good service.
EARL NELSONdrew the attention of the Lord President to the sub-sections which threw the burden of the proof of the age of the child and the efficiency of the school on the parent, who might be very ill qualified to furnish the proof required.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPONexplained that there would be no difficulty in proving the efficiency of the school, because the Board assumed that every elementary school was efficient. As to age, if the child was born in the parish, the parent could easily obtain the necessary certificate; and if born in a distant parish, the parent would be the most proper person to call on to furnish the proof of age. He could not agree in the view taken by his noble Friend (Earl Fortescue) of the training colleges, for he doubted whether it would be possible to procure all the schoolmasters that would be required without them.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

CONFESSION IN THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND.

  ADDRESS FOR A PAPER.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBY,in moving an Address to Her Majesty for Copy of a Petition recently presented to Convocation in reference to the training and licensing of a body of Confessors in the Church of England, said, their Lordships were aware that a few weeks ago a Petition was presented by the Archbishop of Canterbury to the Upper House of Convocation of that Province, signed by a considerable body of clergy-

  1167
  men, praying for the training and licensing a body of Confessors within the Church. He had no wish to take up the time of their Lordships by any discussion on the subject of the Confessional. Convocation, however, was a most important body as regarded the Church, and being so it was of the utmost importance that it should possess the confidence of the laity. Now, there could be no doubt that the petitioners made a very startling proposal. He was aware that several clergymen had individually advocated confession, but they had done so on their own responsibility; but this was the first time since the Reformation, that a proposal had been made to give it the authorization of the Church itself, and it was of the utmost importance to know how it had been received by Convocation. As far as he could learn, the Bishops received the Memorial, and had offered no reply to it; but, at the same time, they had thought it right to take that opportunity of expressing their opinion upon the main subject raised by the Memorial. The consequence was that a Committee was appointed, and a very valuable Report was presented by them to Convocation. That there might be no misconception on the subject, and that the public might know not only the nature of the Petition, and the number and importance of the signatures, but also what was the reply of the Bishops, he thought it right that the transaction should in a formal way be laid before Parliament. He, therefore, begged to move the Address of which he had given Notice.
  Moved, that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copy of petition presented to the Upper House of Convocation of the Province of Canterbury by the Archbishop of Canterbury, praying among other things for the training and licensing of a body of confessors in the Church of England; together with the names of the subscribers and copy of the answer to the same presented by the Committee of the whole Upper House.—(The Earl of Harrowby.)
  THE BISHOP OF LONDON,in the absence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, said, there would be no objection to lay a Copy of the Petition on the Table of the House. With respect to the Report referred to by the noble Earl, he wished it to be understood that it was in no way an answer to the Petition. A Committee of Convocation was appointed to consider the subject and draw up a
  1168
  Report on it. That Report had been drawn up and presented, but had not yet been adopted. Strictly speaking, therefore, the matter was still under consideration; and the document asked for being thus incomplete, he thought it was, at least, premature to ask for its production.
  LORD HOUGHTONhoped the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) would not press his Motion. It would be a great error for their Lordships to interfere with Convocation—if they did they might in time find themselves drawn into the arena of theological controversy—a thing which was to be avoided as much as possible. He thought it was a pity that the noble Earl had brought forward the Motion in the absence of the Archbishops, who might have given some explanation which might have proved useful. Moreover, they had heard, too, from the right rev. Prelate, that the action of Convocation in the matter was as yet inchoate and incomplete, and had not yet assumed a character which would warrant their Lordships in adopting the course recommended. There was another objection to the Motion of the noble Earl. Matters of a transitory character like the one involved in the Petition, in connection with which there was necessarily a good deal of excitement, ought not to have their importance too much magnified. That, he was afraid, had been too much done in the case under discussion. He was told that a very considerable number of those who had subscribed to it had done so hastily, without comprehending its real import, and possibly under some confusion of ideas as to the real principle involved. For these reasons he thought the Petition in question ought not to be made the subject of an Address to the Crown. By adopting the course advised by the noble Earl, they would simply be giving permanent importance to a document which in itself was transitory and of small moment in its character. Above all, they would arouse a large amount of public animosity against many gentlemen who had, as he had explained, signed the Petition unwittingly.
  THE BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER AND BRISTOLventured to think that some inconvenience would result from giving publicity to the names of those who had signed the Memorial. Many of those

  1169
  gentlemen had appended their names without serious thought; and it had transpired that several had withdrawn their signatures, and not a few had even expressed regret for having signed the Petition under the impression that it was something else. Under these circumstances he hoped, at all events, that the noble Earl would withdraw that portion of his Motion which asked for the production of the names of the subscribers.
  EARL NELSONsaid, their Lordships could scarcely ask Convocation to lay before them a document which was imperfect and incomplete in its character. When both Houses of Convocation had definitely given their decision upon it, the Motion of the noble Earl might be moved with perfect propriety; but at present it was premature. He thought it most undesirable to publish the names of the signers—it might hurt the prospects of many young men who had signed the Petition somewhat hastily.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYalso strongly urged his noble Friend to leave out that portion of his Motion relating to the names of the subscribers.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR'Sopinion was that it would be as irregular to ask for the production of the Petition while it was still under the consideration of Convocation as it would be for the House of Commons to ask for a Report of one of its Select Committees before it was laid on the Table; he did not at all see how they could ask for the Report of the Committee until Convocation had adopted it. He strongly objected to the production of the names of those who had signed the Petition—especially as it appeared that a large proportion of them were not aware of the precise nature of the document they were signing. He could not but take notice of the evidence which this and other late instances afforded of the mischievous effects of the practice of hawking Petitions about the country in order to obtain promiscuous signatures. Nothing was to his mind more objectionable or reprehensible, whoever were the parties who did it, or whatsoever might be their objects. One result of the practice was, that they found people coming forward one after another confessing that when they appended their names to a document, purporting to be a serious expression of opinion upon subjects of
  1170
  the gravest importance, they really did not know what they were signing. He was afraid that this was too often the case in respect to Petitions presented to both Houses of Parliament.
  THE BISHOP OF CHICHESTERhoped the noble Earl would withdraw his Motion, because the carrying of it might embitter the controversy.
  LORD HATHERLEYwished to ask the noble Earl whether it was worth his while to press his Motion? The Petition itself was of very grave importance, but not of such importance as to require an Address to the Crown that a Copy of it might he presented to their Lordships. Their Lordships had been told that a number of those who signed the Petition had signed it in ignorance of its contents, and that others had signed it under a total misapprehension of the subject. He remembered the case of a Petition which was presented on behalf of a woman who had attempted to murder both her father and mother. The Petition stated that if her life were spared she might be useful as a teacher in a school in one of the Colonies. He must join his humble request to that of the noble Lord below him, that the noble Earl, for the present at least, would not press his Motion.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, it did not require the intercession of so many Members of the Ecclesiastical Bench and of their Lordships generally to induce him to yield at once to the appeal made to him. It would certainly be better that the answer of the Committee of Convocation should not be placed before Parliament before it had been formally accepted by the whole body. As to the condemnation passed by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack on the practice of hawking about Petitions for promiscuous signature, he quite agreed with the noble and learned Lord. As for this particular case he should not have attached such importance to the isolated action of a few eccentric clergymen, if it had been such; but the fact was that the Petition in question was the work of an organized body, which had divided all England into districts for the purpose of extending the practice of auricular confession. Their zeal and their organization were unbounded. He had seen a circular specially addressed to children, marked "the eighth thousand," urging them

  1171
  to go to a priest at the earliest moment for the purpose of confessing their sins to him. It was most important that some corrective of this abuse should be set up, and he trusted the Bishops would promulgate their opinion at the earliest moment possible.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons with the amendments to which the Lords have disagreed not insisted on; and with the amendments made by the Lords to the amendments made by the Commons agreed to, with an amendment; and with consequential amendments to an amendment made by the Commons: The said amendment and consequential amendments to be considered on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.