Lords Sitting of 18 July 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Second Reading Exchequer Bonds (£1,600,000)* (222); Treasury Chest Fund * (217); Steam Threshing Machines (210).
Committee—Conveyancing (Scotland) (141–227).
Committee—Report—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order (No.3)* (166); Highland Schools (Scotland) * (205).
Report—Court of Queen's Bench (Ireland) (Grand Juries)* (224).
Third Reading—Blackwater Bridge* (197); Public Works Loan Commissioners (School and Sanitary Loans)* (193); Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, Amendment (201), and passed.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS COMMISSIONERS— DENBIGH FREE GRAMMAR SCHOOL.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE BISHOP OF BANGORrose to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refuse her assent to the schemes of the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the management of the Free Grammar School and of the Blue Coat School Charity at Denbigh, in the county of Denbigh, North Wales. The school was in an altogether exceptional position, and ought not to be brought under the operation of the Act of 1869. This was a denominational school, and as such had received the annual Parliamentary grant, and therefore came under the exemption of the 19th clause. He understood that the Rector of Denbigh had applied for the necessary certificate from the Education Department, but he had not received it. The endowment possessed by these schools had hitherto extended the benefits of education over a very large population; but if the scheme of the Commissioners was approved of, the advantages would be taken from the poorer classes and transferred to the middle and well-to-do class. Another effect of the scheme of the Commissioners would be to sever the connection of the schools with the Church of England; but they were founded expressly in connection with that Church.
  Moved that an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refuse her assent to the schemes of the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the management of the Free Grammar School and of the Blue Coat School Charity at Denbigh in the county of Denbigh, North Wales.—(The Lord Bishop of Bangor.)
  LORD LYTTELTONsaid, that the legal advisers of the Endowed Schools Commissioners and those of the Education Department had given opinions against the claim of exemption from the operation of the 19th section of the Act which the opponents of the scheme had set up. It was not correct to say that these endowments were intended solely for the poor—it was distinctly stated that they were intended for the children of the labouring class and poorer tradesmen. What was intended by the Commissioners was to amalgamate these schools so as to make the several endowments belonging to them more serviceable than they could possibly be under the existing system. He denied that these schools were expressly Church of England schools. It was true that the boys had been sent to the National School, and that some of the funds had been applied to building the National School. But this he contended was a breach of trust, though not an intentional one, on the part of the Governors. There could be no doubt that the education of the poorer class of children at Denbigh would be provided for by the Elementary Education Act; and it was proposed by the aid of these endowments to provide the district with the means of higher education. The scheme had been much discussed in North Wales and had received general approval; and the town council of Denbigh were in its favour.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYdenied that in considering any scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners either House of Parliament was bound by the precise words of the Act of 1869. If the terms of the Act were not properly carried out, there was an appeal to the Privy Council; but it was further provided—without limiting the grounds on which the House had to exercise its power—that either House should have power to see whether the Act was carried out in the spirit in which Parliament had passed it, or whether words and technicalities had been taken advantage of in order that the Act might be used in a way that had never been intended. What those who opposed this scheme complained of was the same as had been complained of in other and similar cases—not that the letter but that the spirit of the Act had been violated. The school with which it was now proposed to deal had hitherto been regarded as
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  a Church school—the fact that the Rector of Denbigh for the time being had been appointed by the founder an ex officio Trustee plainly indicated his intention that the school should be conducted as a Church school. The effect of the scheme of the Commissioners would be to hand it over to the Dissenters; and he submitted that it was not in accordance with the spirit of the Act of 1869, nor with any fair and honest dealing that a school which had hitherto belonged to the Church should be handed over to the Dissenters. If the Commissioners proposed to give over the school to the Dissenting Bodies, they ought openly to avow it, and discuss the question upon that basis. The Endowed Schools Act, however, was not passed with any such purpose, and he demurred to any scheme by which that object would be carried into effect. But the ground that attracted his sympathy most on the present occasion was the operation of the scheme in respect of the poor. It was said that elementary education in. Denbigh would be cared for under the Act of 1870, and that middle-class education would be promoted by this scheme. But this was an elementary school. The noble Lord (Lord Lyttelton) said it was a school for the labouring class and poor tradesmen. He seemed to imagine that labourers and poor tradesmen were not proper subjects for an elementary school. Under the scheme it appeared that the tuition fees would amount to not less than 2s. 6d. per week, and not more than 5s. Such fees, he submitted, poor tradesmen would not be able to pay for the education of their children. The result therefore would be to throw the benefits of the endowment into the hands of the middle classes. The best way to encourage education was to treat educational endowments as sacred. Did they seriously believe that any man, anxious for a middle class or any other education, would give his money and alienate it from his family for ever if he knew that some generations hence it would be dissipated to suit the peculiar theories of the Lytteltons and the Robinsons of that day? There was another reason why this scheme should not be adopted. In a Bill now before the other House of Parliament it was provided that in the case of endowments under £100 a-year the Educational Department, and not

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  the Endowed Schools Commissioners, should deal with the endowment. The Government had accepted that policy—the endowment of this school was only £70 a-year—yet, while their Bill was still before Parliament, they introduced a scheme in direct contravention to their own policy. It seemed hard upon the Governors of the Denbigh schools that they should be punished only because they were a little too early to come under the provisions of the Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he did not dispute the proposition of his noble Friend opposite, that the reference of those schemes to both Houses of Parliament was with the view that each House might object if it thought that the spirit of the Act was not fairly carried out. He thought, however, that his noble Friend had entirely misunderstood the provisions of the Act of 1869, and the principles on which it was founded. He must deny that the foundation in this case was for elementary education, and also that the endowment was under £100 a-year. If his noble Friend would refer to the provisions made by the Founder, he would find that he intended his endowment for the benefit of the children of the labouring class and the poorer tradesmen, and he distinctly laid down that the children should be educated separately and not in a public school. He (the Marquess of Ripon) therefore contended that the Governors in applying these funds to elementary education and sending the children to national schools had been guilty of a distinct breach of trust. On a former occasion the Rector of Denbigh took a view the very opposite to that for which he now contended. In 1865, a grant was made to the Denbigh School by the Department of Education. It was then the rule that when there was an endowment for elementary education, the amount of the endowment was deducted from the grant. Well, the Department proposed to make a deduction in this instance; but the Rector met that proposition by the statement that the endowment was not connected with elementary education. The rev. gentleman's assertion was accepted in 1865, and up to the present time the managers had been receiving a grant of public money in consequence of the Rector's representation that the endowment was not connected with elementary educa-
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  tion. It was said that the scheme which their Lordships were asked to reject took advantages from the poor and handed them over to the middle-class; but he must point out that the scheme provided for exhibitions which were to be competed for in the public elementary schools of Denbigh. Was not this an effectual method of fostering and raising the education of the labouring class? The exhibitions would enable those who gained them to pass to schools of a higher class. By agreeing to this scheme an undoubted stimulus would be given to the educational power of this school, which would be greatly injured were their Lordships to accept the Motion of the right rev. Prelate.
  LORD CAIRNSremarked that the Bill now before the other House of Parliament—the Endowed Schools Act (1869) Amendment Bill—would exempt from the control of the Endowed Schools Commissioners all schools the aggregate educational endowments of which were less than £100 per annum. Seeing that the educational endowment of the present school only amounted to £70 per annum—for though its income as a charity amounted to £127 a-year, only £70 of that was applicable to the purposes of education—the establishment would undoubtedly come within that exemption if the Bill to which he referred had become law; and, in his opinion, it was unwise and unfair to allow the Commissioners to exercise with regard to this school a power which in a very few days would altogether cease. He had always protested against one of the views taken by the Endowed Schools Commissioners as being erroneous. The Commissioners seemed to consider that since the Elementary Education Act was passed—two years after their own appointment—they were entitled to take up that Act and say that now that Parliament had provided for the elementary education of the country, they must direct their efforts to devoting educational endowments to middle-class education, inasmuch as the rates levied under the Act would provide for primary education. But this was an entire perversion of the spirit and intent of Parliament in passing the Elementary Education Act. What they intended by that was, not that it should be exhaustive with regard to the primary education of the country, but that it should fill up any vacancies in that

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  education wherever it might be found. The Endowed Schools Commissioners went upon the reverse principle, and sought to increase the vacancies by applying endowments intended for elementary education to the purposes of middle class education. This, he ventured to say, was a breach of faith towards Parliament and the country. For these reasons he should support the Motion for the Address.
  On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 68; Not-Contents 46; Majority 22.
  Resolved in the Affirmative.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS COMMISSIONERS— HEATH FREE GRAMMAR SCHOOL.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYmoved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refuse her assent to the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the management of the Free Grammar School of Queen Elizabeth at Heath, in the borough of Halifax, in the county of York, and of all the endowments thereof. The only question at issue in this matter was whether this school was or was not a Church of England school. The school was founded by the Vicar of Halifax in 1584, by a patent from Queen Elizabeth, under which the Archbishop of York was to have the power of making statutes for the management of the school. The school had been, since its foundation, a Church of England school on the strictest principles. As often as it had been dealt with by the Court of Chancery the consent of that Prelate had always been obtained, and its scholars had always up to the present time received a religious education according to the doctrine of the Church of England. To all intents and purposes, therefore, it had been a Church of England school. But the Endowed Schools Commissioners had refused to recognize that character in the constitution of the new trust. The Vicar was no longer, as all his predecessors had been, one of the ex officio members of the Governing Body—the Archbishop of York disappeared; and, in fact, the school was filched altogether from the Church of England, and handed over to the chances
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  of management and co-optative governorship. He thought this scheme ought to be set aside.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refuse her assent to the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the management of the Free Grammar School of Queen Elizabeth at Heath in the borough of Halifax in the county of York, and of all the endowments thereof.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONwas understood to say that the Archbishop of York offered no opposition to the scheme of the Commissioners. Neither by the will of the Founder, nor according to the scheme settled by the Court of Chancery in the reign of George II., was the Vicar of Halifax constituted an ex officio member of the Governing Body, and he had never been one of that body except as an elected member. There was no desire to deprive the Vicar of his position, and by the present scheme not only the present Vicar, but every one of the existing Governors, was placed upon the Governing Body. Therefore he did not think the scheme was fairly open to the objection of the noble Marquess. There appeared to be a disinclination on the part of the Governing Body of this school to have an interview with the officials of Education Department for the purpose of discussing its condition with reference to the provisions of the Endowed Schools Act. He regretted that the noble Marquess should have thought it his duty to propose this Motion, when no complaint had been made with reference to the new plan for the government of this school either to Mr. Forster or to himself.
  After a short discussion, in which Lord Cairns, the Marquess of Ripon, and the Marquess of Salisbury took part, but which was almost inaudible,
  On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

  CONVEYANCING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  (The Lord Chancellor.)
  (NO. 141.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Estates of superiority and property to be separate. Certain reserved rights shall import an estate of property.)
  LORD COLONSAYsaid, the Bill looked like an attempt to reconcile two things which were in themselves irreconcilable—namely, the conversion of feu tenure and the preservation of the right of superiority. Hitherto the superiors had in law been held to be the proprietors of the land, subject to the burden of such feus as had been granted, and as such they had been in the enjoyment of important rights. That system had hitherto worked well. It was now proposed to divest the superiors of these rights, and to leave them only the name. This clause went to upset the existing systems, to which no objection had been taken, but which, to judge by the reception this Bill had met with, was popular in Scotland. Men of business throughout the country were opposed to the change. Petitions against it had been presented from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and other places in Scotland, where feuing was much resorted to. It was the favourite practice of persons who had been successful in trade to feu small pieces of land for the purpose of building dwelling-houses which they could call their own and of which they could never be deprived. They preferred land on this tenure to leases of any length; feus were rights in perpetuity and maintained their value throughout, whereas leases were temporary rights and diminished in value with the efflux of time. But the provisions of this Bill interfered so much with the safety of superiors in regard to feus that they would be compelled to limit themselves to the granting of leases only, which would be much less satisfactory to the people. Feu duties were at present a favourite investment, and money could be borrowed upon them on more favourable terms than on leases; but he was informed that since this Bill had been introduced this species of property had fallen two, three, and even four Years' purchase. Nobody in Scotland wanted this change, and for himself he doubted much whether it would be an improvement. He certainly thought that before accepting a legislative change of this kind, there ought to be some Parliamentary inquiry whether the change was wanted. It seemed to him that it was a mere speculative view, opposed to the Report of a Royal Commission made in 1838, and also opposed to the opinion both of those interested
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  and of those who were best qualified to judge of the effects of such a change. He therefore felt bound to move the omission of the clause.
  Moved, to omit Clause 3,—(The Lord Colonsay).
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that notwithstanding the high authority of the noble and learned Lord, he felt bound to differ from him. The Bill would certainly introduce changes in the existing system of land conveyancing in Scotland, but he did not believe that these changes would have any but a beneficial effect upon such transactions. It was not intended to alter substantially any of the rights of the superiors or their feuars. What was intended by the Bill was to introduce a system whereby those rights might be more conveniently enjoyed. However, to meet the wishes of the noble and learned Lord, he had no objection to omit from the clause the definitions of estates of superiority and property, and leave only that portion of the clause which provided that estates of property should, with respect to title, be independent of any estate of superiority.
  LORD COLONSAYsaid, this did not at all meet his objection.
  On Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill? Resolved in. the Negative.
  Clause struck out.
  Clause 4 (Renewal of Investiture abolished).
  On the Motion of Lord COLONSAY, the latter part of the clause struck out and new paragraphs inserted—(Infeftment to imply confirmation. Implied confirmation not to affect rights of superiors to feu duties, &c. Action in lieu of declarator of non-entry.)
  New clauses added.
  Clause (A.) (Corporation to pay composition every 25 years).
  Clause 5 agreed to.
  Clause 6 struck out.
  Clause (B.) (Conveyance to vassal to operate as consolidation of superiority with property) in lieu of Clause 7.
  Clause (C.) (Memorandum of allocation of property) in lieu of Clause 8.
  Clauses 9 and 10 struck out.
  Clause (D.) (Completion of title when deceased heir not served).
  Clauses 11 to 20 agreed to, with Amendments.
  New Clause (E.) after Clause 20—(Where feu rights with casualties are contracted to be granted).
  Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 227.)

  STEAM THRESHING MACHINES BILL.
  (The Earl of Morley.)
  (NO. 210.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the object of the Bill was to prevent accidents arising from the use of these machines owing to their not being properly fenced. Last year 12 of those accidents occurred to women and children, some of them being of the most horrible description. The Bill, therefore, required that the drum of every steam threshing machine shall be provided with a sufficient fence whenever it shall be in use, and inflicted a penalty of £10 on the owner of the machine for not so providing it. Another clause provided that if any person suffers bodily injury in consequence of default of the owner of the machine, after notice in writing has been given to him by an Inspector of Factories that such machine is dangerous, such owner shall be liable to a penalty of £50. The measure was very much needed, and the Government had been strongly pressed to bring it in. There was ample precedent for it in their factory legislation; and altogether there was sufficient justification for its introduction, even at this late period of the Session. It had been suggested that it was necessary to give some time to enable the fencing to be effected before the Bill came into full operation, and the Government would therefore consider, before the Committee was taken, what the length of that time should be.
  Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Morley.)
  THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAMthought that five or six months should be given for the putting up of the requisite fencing.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly and committed to a. Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT (1870) AMENDMENT BILL.
  (The Earl Cowper.)
  (NO. 201.) THIRD READING. BILL PASSED.
  Bill read 3a according to Order.
  LORD REDESDALEmoved an Amendment restricting the increase of rates to cases where the companies could prove, that in spite of careful economy, they were likely to incur a loss.
  Amendment moved, Clause 7, line 25, to leave out ("with a view to prevent undue loss.")—(The Lord Redesdale.)
  EARL COWPERsaid, that the companies' dividends having been limited while the price of materials was low they were entitled to increase their rates, provided the dividends obtained by the increase did not exceed 5 per cent.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDalso thought the increased price of coal entitled companies to increase their rates so as to secure dividends of 5 per cent.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, the companies had had a monopoly, and in many cases the works were expensively carried on. Some companies still earned dividends with low rates.
  On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 13: Not-Contents 9; Majority 4.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
  House adjourned at half past Ten o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.