Lords Sitting of 11 July 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS:—First Reading—Militia (Service, &c.)* (206).
Second Reading—Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, Amendment (201); Court of Queen's Bench (Ireland) (Grand Juries)* (184).
Committee—Law Agents (Scotland) (163–207); Colonial Church* (203–208).
Committee—Report—Blackwater Bridge (Composition of Debt)* (199); Indian Railways Registration* (164).
Report—Prison Officers Superannuation (Ireland)* (192); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6)* (157).
Third Reading—Statute Law Revision* (174); Canada Loan Guarantee* (183), and passed.

ALDERNEY (HARBOUR AND FORTIFICATIONS).—QUESTION.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETrose to call the attention of the House to the Report of the Select Committee in last Session on the Works in Alderney, and to ask what decision the Government had arrived at with respect to the maintenance of those Works? The circumstances which had led to the construction of these Works were well known to their Lordships. They were commenced about a quarter of a century ago—in 1847, he believed—on the recommendation of the first naval and military authorities of the day, and with the sanction of the

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Duke of Wellington and Sir John Burgoyne, who considered them essential to the protection of the Channel and very important to the defence of the United Kingdom itself. They were completed after a very large expenditure of money in 1859 or 1860. The maintenance of the works in repair required a certain annual expenditure; and in 1867 great damage was done to the breakwater by heavy storms, which had been repaired at great outlay. Objection being taken to this expenditure in the House of Commons, the Secretary to the Treasury stated that as soon as the harbour was finished it would be necessary to commence the fortifications for its defence, whereas the fact was that they had already been constructed, and the whole works as a system of national defence were completed. The Select Committee for which he moved last Session unanimously recommended that the Government should seriously consider the course to be adopted. The question to be decided, they said, was in what way the fortified harbour should be now treated—whether it should be maintained in whole or in part—or destroyed and obliterated, or allowed gradually to perish by neglect?—and they stated that there was a very general concurrence of opinion amongst military and naval officers that in ease of war the harbour at Alderney would be of great service and that the altered conditions of naval war did not detract from its value as a look-out station; as to the question of abandonment, they stated that the immense mass of materials would hold together for many years and afford an incomplete shelter to vessels of war, from which, if seized by an enemy, it would be difficult to dislodge him; and therefore to leave the breakwater in existence and to leave it undefended, Colonel Jervois said, was a proceeding which could not be contemplated. As to the question of the destruction of the harbour and fortifications, the work would, if possible at all, be extremely difficult, and at all events very costly, and Parliament after having expended £1,500,000 on the works would hardly now be disposed to vote a large sum of money for their destruction. He therefore desired to ask Her Majesty's Government what decision they had arrived at with respect to these works? The Lord Privy Seal, who was at the
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Admiralty a great part of the time that the works were carried on, and was more responsible than himself for them, asked him early in the Session to postpone his Motion, in order that the Government might have another examination and report of the actual state of the breakwater, and he believed they had since had a full Report from a naval engineer, a military engineer, and an independent civil engineer. But it was not only on account of the importance that might be attached to Alderney as a harbour of refuge and a base for naval operations, that he pressed the Government to come to a decision—it was unfair to the inhabitants of the island that matters should be left in their present condition. The lights which these works rendered necessary at a cost of £60 a-year, had hitherto been provided by the Government, but this year they took a very economical view, and the Board of Trade had decided that they would no longer be maintained. On the States being summoned, it was shown that the whole revenue of the island was only £750 a-year. Every great country had its debt, and the public debt of Alderney involved an annual charge of£or£90, and they had a standing army of 25 police. Then there was the comparatively handsome contribution of £50 a-year for education, besides other charges, and the States said £60 a-year for the lights would ruin them. Thinking they might influence the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they urged on the Treasury that the breakwater had not been made by them, that there was a shoal at the extremity of it, and that what with the breakwater and the shoal they would be shut out from communication unless the lights were kept up, though they had a communication before the breakwater was made. The Chancellor of the Exchequer so far relented as to say he would do nothing this year; but unfortunately his own motto—Exluce lucellum occurred to his mind, and he thought that by putting out the light he could gain £60 a-year. Alderney had either therefore to pay or be left in darkness. This was a serious thing; last December several vessels were injured owing to the absence of the light. The forts contained about 200 guns, with some artillery and troops, and either the forts must be blown up and the troops withdrawn, or some landing-

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place for stores must be maintained. The breakwater was nearly a mile in length, and a great deal of it in very deep water, rising 21 feet above high-water mark. Perhaps out of the materials some small harbour or landing-place might be made. Its entire abandonment would be unwise, for the forts were solidly built and could easily be maintained. If the principle adopted in "another place," that war was to cease and everything to be settled by International Arbitration and by paying a sum of money was to prevail, of course all fortifications might be given up; but he was not quite a believer in this new principle, and he attached great value to these works. He trusted, therefore, that he should hear from the Government that something was to be clone with them.
VISCOUNT HALIFAXsaid, that when before Easter he requested his noble Friend to postpone his Motion, Her Majesty's Government were of opinion that further information was required before they could give a satisfactory answer to the noble Duke's inquiry, or themselves arrive at any decision as to what ought to be done; and he then said that as they understood that considerable damage had been done to the works during the winter, it was essential that there should be an examination into the actual state of the breakwater. Accordingly, at Easter, Colonel Clarke, Mr. Hawkshaw, and Colonel Jervois, who had examined the works before, and who were well acquainted with the whole subject, proceeded to the island and had since made a Report. The Government were desirous of obtaining information not only as to what would be the cost of maintaining the works, but what would be the cost of demolishing them, should that course be determined on. The proposal of destroying the works was one of so unusual a character that for some weeks the engineers could not prepare anything like an estimate—and when prepared it was of a most unsatisfactory nature. It was not till the day before yesterday that it had been in his power to bring the matter before his Colleagues with the necessary information. The noble Duke was quite right in saying that the works at the Channel Islands bad been sanctioned by successive administrations. They had been planned during Sir Robert Peel's
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Government. On the accession to office of Lord John Russell's Government, he (Viscount Halifax) ascertained the opinion of the Duke of Wellington on the works, which was strongly favourable to a much larger plan. The scheme then was to have a station for a squadron in the Channel Islands. Steam had not at that time been applied to large vessels, and the wind which would bring French vessels out would keep ours in port, and it was thought necessary to have a station on the same side of the Channel to secure an equal advantage of wind. Works for this purpose were to be erected at Guernsey and Jersey. Alderney was then regarded as an advanced post for watching Cherbourg. Circumstances had since entirely changed. The introduction of steam had effected a great revolution in naval warfare, and these works could never be of the advantage that was expected from them when their construction was determined on. The application of steam to large vessels had rendered them almost independent of the wind, and the intended works at Guernsey were abandoned and those at Jersey discontinued; while it was doubtful whether, if the matter was untouched, works would have been constructed at Alderney. There, however, they were, and £250,000 had been spent on the forts, with near £1,500,000 on the harbour and breakwater. To let the works perish by neglect would be foolish and discreditable, and the question was whether they should be maintained or demolished—for it would never do to let such a place as this fall into the possession of any other nation. The noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) hail a longer reign than himself at the Admiralty during the progress of the works; but they were begun under his own superintendence when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, under the name of a harbour of refuge—a decided misnomer, for they were a military and naval station, and nothing else. They were afterwards most improperly transferred to the Board of Trade, and he believed that this was done by the noble Duke himself. After carefully considering all these matters, the Admiralty were of opinion that in case of war a station for watching all vessels lying at Cherbourg and giving telegraphic information of their movements would be of great use, and our trade in the Channel would be in a critical posi-

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tion if Alderney some fine morning were in the possession of the French. The Government had therefore determined to present an estimate to the other House for the maintenance of the works as they were; and he thought they ought to be thankful to the noble Duke for moving for the Committee last year and forcing their attention to the subject. Very little damage was sustained by the works last winter, and the expense of maintenance would be £5,000 or £7,000 a-year, while the estimated cost of demolition varied from £100,000 to £200,000, and perhaps more; so that the interest on the money required for destruction of the works would be sufficient for their maintenance.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, that he had sat upon the Committee; and having heard all the details fully discussed, he would suggest that it was worthy of consideration whether convict labour might not be employed on the maintenance of the works—the work would then be done at very small cost. The fact that the large convict establishments at Portland and Portsmouth were within easy reach made the position of Alderney very favourable, and an interchange of convicts might be beneficial. He rejoiced at the decision of the Government to maintain the works, for, though they would not now be probably undertaken had nothing been done, the large sum spent made their abandonment undesirable, and it was essential to exclude any other country from them.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE,in the interest of economy, urged promptitude in carrying out the repairs. The longer the works were left unrepaired the greater would be the difficulty in repairing them; and he hoped, therefore, that whatever was intended to be done would be commenced as soon as possible.
VISCOUNT HALIFAXadmitted that the suggestion of the illustrious Duke was well worthy of consideration, but thought that convict labour was cheap only when employed on large works and in a particular kind of labour. Skilled labour would be required in this case.

THE TURKO-PERSIAN BOUNDARY.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEasked Her Majesty's Govern-
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  ment, 1. Whether the treaty between Persia and Turkey, concluded under the mediation of England and Russia, is now in force; 2. whether the frontier between the two Mahomedan countries, as settled by that treaty, had been practically laid down; 3. what had been done with the map which was framed by the two mediating Powers for the more exact and perpetual delineation of the frontier in question? Nearly 30 years ago Turkey and Persia were on the point of going to war, the question of frontier being one of the most important subjects in dispute. Turkey very unwillingly admitted the mediation of England and Russia, and negotiations ensued occupying several years, and resulting in a treaty. A map was framed with the greatest care by the two mediating Powers, and he had hoped to hear by this time that it had been used for the purpose of fixing a line of demarcation. He was ignorant what use had been made of it; but he had heard on good authority that it had been much lost sight of, and that while Persia was anxious to come to terms with the Porte, the same desire did not exist on the other side. It was very desirable that the frontier should be laid down, for there was a tract of country occupied by nomadic tribes, who frequently changed their position, being at one time subjects of one Power, and at another time of another, and this led to constant squabbles as regarded taxation and other questions.
  EARL GRANVILLE, said, the desire of the noble Viscount to obtain information on this subject was very natural considering the important part he took in the question at the time it arose. The Treaty to which the noble Viscount's Question referred was certainly still in force. The map referred to was communicated to the Turkish and Persian Governments by the mediating Powers, with the intimation that the boundary line would be found within the district marked; but, unfortunately, no clear and definite demarcation of frontier could be laid down, the consequence being that questions of a serious character, at times threatening serious results, had arisen. Ten copies were made of the map, Russia having five and England five. The English Government sent one copy to Turkey, another to Persia, another to the British Embassy, and one was de-

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  posited at the Foreign Office. A proposal had recently been made that a joint Commission of the four Powers should be appointed to draw up a line of frontier, and that in the meanwhile, to prevent collisions, the status quo should be observed till the line had been settled and marked out by the Commission. England and Russia were perfectly agreed on these proposals, and he had every reason to believe that the question would be settled. This would remove all serious difficulties between two countries whose interest it obviously was to maintain the most friendly relations, and such relations were important, not only to themselves, but to European Powers.

  LAW AGENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  (The Lord Chancellor.)
  (NO. 163.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order)
  Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
  LORD COLONSAYmoved to insert a clause to the effect that every member of the Society of Writers to the Signet should be enrolled as a law agent on producing his certificate from the Society. He objected that the Writers to the Signet should be called upon to apply for admission and submit to a fresh examination. They were a body of professional men who had already passed a most searching examination, and whose right to practise in the Supreme Courts in virtue of their, commissions as Writers to the Signet had been recognized by statute since the first half of the 16th century.
  Moved, after Clause 4, to insert the following clause—
  "Every person who shall hereafter be admitted a Member of the Society of Writers to the Signet shall be enrolled as a law agent by the registrar on producing a certificate of his admission by an officer authorised by the Society to grant such certificate."
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he admitted the high position and great legal attainments of the Writers to the Signet; but he could not see any sufficient reason for exempting them from the examination required for admission as law agents. To do so would be to infringe the principle upon which the Bill was based—namely, to throw open
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  the profession of law agents to all persons who passed the necessary examination, and it could surely be no hardship upon a Writer to the Signet, who had successfully passed a very strict examination, to ask him also to submit to the less trying ordeal through which law agents might be required to pass.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDregretted the refusal of the noble and learned Lord to accept the Amendment. The main object of the Bill was to raise the standard of legal education in Scotland, and he could see no reason why the Writers to the Signet should not obtain the exemption proposed in the clause now proposed.
  LORD COLONSAYsaid, that to pass the Bill in its present shape would defeat one of the main objects of the Bill—namely, to raise the standard of legal education in Scotland. The Writers to the Signet had now to pass a series of very severe examinations, and they could scarcely be expected to submit to double examination; so that if the Bill passed in its present form, it would possibly lower the standard to the level of that which intending law agents were to be called upon to undergo.
  After a few remarks from Lord CAIRNS,
  On Question? Their Lordships divided: Contents 39; Not-Contents 46: Majority 7.
  Resolved in the Negative.
  Clauses 5 to 9 agreed to.
  Clause 10 (Exceptions to rule that applicants shall undergo examination as to fitness to practise).
  On the Motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, Amendment made that no person who was under indenture at the time of the passing of the Procurators Act, or should have completed his apprenticeship prior to that date, shall be required to undergo an examination in general knowledge.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 11 to 24 agreed to.
  Clause 25 (Repealing Clause).
  LORD COLONSAYsaid, that by this clause the Procurators (Scotland) Act, 1865, was repealed; but it was provided that the repeal of that Act should not prevent Societies formed under the Act continuing to exist as "unincorporated

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  bodies." He proposed to amend the clause by substituting the word "incorporated" for "unincorporated."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  LORD COLONSAYmoved to insert the following new clause at the end of the Bill—
  "Except in so far as relates to striking the name of any person off the roll of law agents, nothing in this Act shall be held to affect the existing powers of inferior Courts, or the Judges thereof, over Procurators practising before such Courts, so far as these powers may be necessary for supporting the jurisdiction, and maintaining the authority of several Courts."
  Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Tuesday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 207.)

  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT (1870) AMENDMENT BILL.
  (The Earl Cowper.)

  (NO. 201.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  EARL COWPER,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to enable any Gas or Waterworks Company to obtain Provisional Orders from the Board of Trade, authorizing an amendment of their special Act, in relation either to the prescribed illuminating power, or the prescribed maximum price, or the prescribed pressure of the gas, to be supplied. Certain necessary notices having been given, the Board of Trade was to consider the application, and if they signified their assent, the Provisional Orders were to be valid, and to come into operation without awaiting the confirmation by Parliament, which, however, was to be obtained as speedily as possible.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl Cowper.)
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, the Bill appeared to him to require very serious consideration. It seemed to him to be a very dangerous step to confer upon the Board of Trade the power by their mere approval of an application for a Provisional Order, to do that which hitherto had been done only by the Legislature. It also seemed to him strange to introduce the principle that a Company which
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  was not working at a profit might apply to the Government for permission to increase their rates. It might be a very proper thing to do where, from circumstances for which they were not answerable, they were carrying on their business at a loss; but, under ordinary circumstances, Companies should be held to their chance of profit and loss, like any other description of traders. The Act seemed to fix .3 per cent as the rate of profit to which the Companies were entitled. But a statutory stipulation that the rate of profit was not to exceed 5 per cent under extraordinary circumstances was in effect to fix a minimum dividend for ordinary circumstances.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he thought the Bill in some respects a useful one, and therefore he would not oppose the second reading; but, as it was only delivered that morning, it was proceeding in great haste to ask for the second reading that evening. The Bill gave very large powers to the Board of Trade, and consequently it ought to be seriously considered before it left that House. The Companies ought to he required to show that, through the great increase in the price of coals, or from some other cause, they were working at a loss. He hoped sufficient time would be given before it came on for consideration in Committee.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.