Lords Sitting of 7 July 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Consolidated Fund, &c. (Permanent Charges Redemption)* (198); Blackwater Bridge (Composition of Debt)* (199).
Second Reading—Statute Law Revision* (174); Slave Trade (East African Courts)* (187); Slave Trade (Consolidation)* (188).
Committee—Ecclesiastical Commissioners* (170–200).
Third Reading—Agricultural Children (185); Shrewsbury and Harrow Schools Property* (140), and passed.
Withdrawn—Prevention of Frauds on Charitable Funds (122).
Royal Assent—Municipal Corporations Evidence [36 & 37 Vict. c. 33]; Grand Jury Presentments (Ireland) [36 & 37 Vict. c. 34]; County Authorities (Loans) [36 & 37 Vict. c. 35]; Crown Lands [36 & 37 Vict. c. 36]; Vagrants Law Amendment [36 & 37 Vict. c. 38]; Fairs

1835
[36 & 37 Vict. c. 37]; Gas and Water Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 2) [36 & 37 Vict. c. lxxxi]; Railways Provisional Certificate [36 & 37 Vict. c. lxxxiv]; Metropolitan Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2) [36 & 37 Vict. c. lxxxv]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) [36 & 37 Vict. c. lxxxii]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3) [36 & 37 Vict. c. lxxxiii]; Metropolitan Commons Supplemental [36 & 37 Vict. c. lxxxvi].

ARMY—THE EDUCATION OF OFFICERS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEYasked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether arrangements might not be made whereby gentlemen who have qualified for direct commissions, and who may have to wait for some considerable time before being appointed to regiments, might not be sent at once to undergo the prescribed course of study at Sandhurst? He regretted that a question of so much importance should not be brought under their Lordships' notice by some one more competent to deal with it—but what he objected to, in common he believed with the great majority of the military profession, was that young men entering the Army, having successfully passed their competitive examination, after being a year with their regiments, were sent to Sandhurst for a year's study. In fact, after being for a year recognized as regimental officers, they were re-converted into schoolboys. This was said to have been adopted from what was done in Prussia. But what might suit the Prussians very well, where the whole system of training was arranged in conformity, he thought it would be found repugnant to the habits and feelings of young Englishmen. If the young gentlemen who had qualified themselves for direct commissions were sent to Sandhurst at all, it should be immediately after passing the competitive examination, when still accustomed to the restraints of scholastic life, and when they were more likely to render a strict obedience to the regulations. It was unwise, when they had had 12 months' acquaintance with regimental duties and with their brother officers to take them from their regiments and send them to a military seminary.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEreplied that, as a rule, gentlemen who proved themselves qualified for direct commissions would obtain them without delay, and when any delay occurred, it
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  was highly improbable that the interval between the date of their qualification and that of their appointment would be of sufficient length to enable them to complete the prescribed course at Sandhurst. He was happy to say that the gentlemen who qualified at the last examination would probably be provided with commissions within a very short time—probably within two or three weeks. This remark did not apply to a certain number who had passed for West India regiments or the Household Brigade. There were some cases, also, of gentlemen who might have obtained commissions without loss of time, but who had signified to the military authorities that they preferred to await a vacancy in some particular regiment rather than accept a commission in some other regiment actually vacant. It should be borne in mind that the last year or two had been exceptional, the new system having been introduced at a time when there were a very large number of names on the Commander-in-Chief s list, and when moreover a considerable reduction had been made in the establishment of officers, and the delay arising from these circumstances would not be likely to recur. It was intended in future to accept only as many candidates as there was a reasonable prospect of providing with commissions at once. The noble Lord's suggestion would involve the inconvenience of sending to Sandhurst young men waiting for commissions, together with those who had been a year with their regiments. Moreover, the limited accommodation at Sandhurst precluded the admission of a fresh class of students, and the course of study presupposed a year's military experience, acquired with the officer's regiment, without which the instruction provided would not produce the desired advantages. Whatever the House might think of the expediency of making the Sandhurst course the beginning of the officer's career, it was obvious that this and the existing system could not be tried concurrently.
  LORD DE ROSsaid, it was incorrect to suppose the Military Education Commissioners recommended the present system, or that it was adopted in imitation of the Prussian, or any military system of education. When he, as a Member of the Education Commission, in common with his Colleagues, desired to obtain infor-

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  mation as to military education on the Continent, they deputed Captain Hozier, who was an excellent linguist and well acquainted with the subject, to go over and make inquiries, and his Reports, printed in the Appendix, showed that nothing of the kind was practised in foreign armies. He could not conceive anything more injudicious than the present course. Young officers were taken away from their regiments just as they were acquiring a knowledge of their duties, and by an absence of 12 months at the College of Sandhurst would certainly on their return have forgotten much they had learned. Such, at least, was the opinion of some of the best lieutenant-colonels, whom he had consulted on the matter. The Duc d'Aumale had remarked that soldiers should not only receive military instruction, but should belong to a military family; should have a military home; where they know and were known to everybody. If this applied to the soldiers, it was still more applicable to the officers, but the 12 months at Sandhurst interrupted this thorough acquaintance with the regiment, throwing together a number of young officers strangers to each other, under no wholesome control of senior officers, whom they must look up to and obey during their future regimental career, and subjected to an anomalous academic discipline, as disagreeable to their feelings, as useless for any military training. Moreover, some of the existing arrangements were singularly injudicious. For instance, cavalry officers sent to Sandhurst were not allowed to take their horses with them unless they paid for their care and keep at an inn, though every military man was aware that for any extended reconnoissances an officer without being mounted could learn nothing. Again, military administration and military law could be much better mastered with the regiment than at Sandhurst. Strategy was taught there, but this was beginning at the wrong end; and history and geography were unwisely omitted. As to geography, it was the element of all others most important in any military education. It could not be cultivated too early, and it was a study that must be followed up by an officer throughout his whole career. It was well known that if one thing more than another contributed to the late successes of the Prussians, it was the wonderful knowledge of the
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  geography of France shown by their officers of all ranks. Moreover, the well-informed and the ignorant officer alike had to stay 12 months at Sandhurst, learning what could be better acquired with the regiment. He objected, as a professional man, to a system which was fraught with mischief.
  LORD VIVIANasked for an explanation of the statement that an officer could wait for a commission in a particular regiment? He had not understood that an officer was left any choice as to the corps with which he would serve.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEexplained that it sometimes happened that a gentleman would desire a commission in a particular regiment, and took the chance of having to wait a little longer than would otherwise be the case.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he presumed the noble Marquess did not intend to convey the impression that a cadet had a right to a commission in a particular regiment. Hitherto appointments to first commissions had rested with the General Commanding-in-Chief, and no such thing had been heard of as a young officer having a preferment for going into this or that regiment.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, no change had been made in that respect.
  LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he had heard from all officers with whom he had conversed an unfavourable opinion on the arrangement by which young officers after a year's service with their regiments were sent to Sandhurst for study. With the regiment, they were in the position of commissioned officers. After having passed their drill, they mounted guard, sat on courts-martial, acted as orderly officers, and were the companions and equals of their brother officers. A young officer was the object of the kindly interest of his brother officers, and with the prospect of an honourable career he viewed his regiment as his home, and felt indemnified for the home he had left. After 12 months all this was interrupted, and he was sent to Sandhurst, where the companionship of his equals in social life was not possible. Moreover, it was impossible in a year with the regiment to acquire the proper degree of efficiency, and Mr. Cardwell, in instituting this system, could not have been aware of the wise provisions of the Queen's Regulations.
  LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEYin reply, urged that officers awaiting their commissions should be allowed to go at once through the Sandhurst course, and that some other mode should be devised of instructing officers who had joined their regiments.

  ROYAL MILITARY ACADEMY, WOOLWICH—EXAMINATIONS.
  LORD DE ROS,who had given Notice to call the attention of the House to the selection of subjects periodically published for examination of candidates for Woolwich Academy; and to ask, If the general officer at the head of the Academy is at all consulted in preparing that selection; and to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copies of the four last published lists of subjects, said, that seeing Romeo and Juliet among the subjects announced for a recent examination, he wrote to his friend, Sir Lintorn Simmons, whose practical character, as an officer, he knew, to ask what had induced him to sanction it. Sir Lin-torn Simmons replied that he had no voice in the matter. The Royal Commission on Military Education, adopting the Duke of Wellington's principle of examining candidates to see whether they had had the proper education for gentlemen, recommended the abolition of the Council of Military Education, and the appointment of a Director-General of Education, for which post his Royal Highness had selected General W. Napier, a highly accomplished and esteemed officer. Now, surely, the choice of subjects ought to be, to a certain extent, in his hands, or the Civil Service Commissioners should, at least, consult him in the matter. He noticed in the list Chaucer, Spenser, the Epistles of Horace, and other authors from the perusal of whom a taste was likely to be formed in after-life, but who inspired distaste when imposed, as a study, on young men who saw in them no immediate practical utility. In Mr. Edgeworth's admirable work on professional education, this proposition was argued with great ability. Lord Stanhope's History of England or History of the War of Succession would be much more suitable; but what possible effect could the study of Romeo and Juliet have upon the scientific and mechanical education of
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  Woolwich? He also noticed, among the subjects for examination, the Areopagitica, which—though he was aware that the Areopagus was a Greek tribunal—puzzled him, and it was not till after vainly consulting several dictionaries that he found that the word Areopagitica was said to have been originally derived from some tradition of a trial of the God Mars for homicide, which trial was conducted by Twelve Gods and Goddesses, when six being on one side and six on the other the accused was acquitted. This seemed a precedent for the recent proposal of the noble Earl (Earl Russell) as to Irish juries. Moreover, as soon as this curious list of subjects was published, the crammer came forward to "coach" his pupils in every detail of the works so fancifully selected—a very unwholesome system. He could not think that the selection of subjects was at all suited for young men studying for the Army, and as their Lordships were practical judges on the subject, he thought he should have their support in urging a more common-sense view as to the propriety of issuing subjects for the examination of Woolwich candidates of more elementary nature, and more likely to be of service in preparing them for the course of instruction they would be required to pursue in the academy of Woolwich, which was specially intended for training cadets for the service of Engineers and Artillery.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, the subjects of examination for admission to the Royal Military Academy were laid down in the Regulations for first appointments in the Army. Those Regulations were framed upon the Report of a Royal Commission, of which the noble Lord was himself a Member, as also were Sir Lintorn Simmons (the present Director General of Military Education), General Napier, and Lord Northbrook. The examination was conducted, in accordance with the recommendations of the Commission, by the Civil Service Commissioners, who selected the period of history and the particular authors prescribed for each examination. The Commissioners notified their selection to the Director General of Military Education, who published the particulars in the newspapers or otherwise, and who had an opportunity—of which he sometimes availed himself—of signifying to the Secretary

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  of State any objections he might possibly take to the recommendations of the Civil Service Commissioners. The Governor of the Royal Military Academy was not, however, consulted. The authors were selected generally with reference to the period of history prescribed by the Civil Service Commissioners. He should be able to place in the hands of the House the list of authors for the last four examinations, when the House would see that, with the exception of one or two classical plays of Shakespeare, and of parts of the works of Chaucer—the authors selected either had reference to the events which took place during the period of history selected, or else the works were written during that period of history itself. He confessed that he had listened to the noble Lord opposite (Lord. de Ros) with feelings of surprise. He objected to the selection of Romeo and Juliet. Now, it was just conceivable that the noble Lord might anticipate with apprehension the effects of reading the balcony scene upon the imagination of some young lieutenant. But when the noble Lord went on to profess his surprise at the selection of the Areopagitica, and to ask the House what that treatise was, he confessed to feelings of bewilderment. With regard to the intention of these examinations he might remind the House that they were not intended as tests of the military acquirements of a candidate. The Royal Commission took this view, and their Report contained. these words:—
  "To the general character of the entrance examinations recommended by us we have already alluded. They have been designed with a special reference to the curriculum adopted at the most advanced of our public schools, and with the express intention of enabling the competitors to come straight from one of those establishments to the examination hall, without having occasion to resort to any intermediate place of study."
  "Moreover, as we have already observed, it is very desirable that no instruction should be rendered purely technical until after the foundations have been laid of a sound liberal education."
  That was the view of the Royal Commissioners, and he thought it was a sound one. It was a misapprehension to consider the examinations as forming any part of the course of military education. Their object was, not to test the military acquirements of the candidate, but to ascertain whether his general culture fitted him for admission to the
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  Queen's service. He agreed with the noble Lord's condemnation of "cramming," but the new system tended in an opposite direction. If the candidate had to take up the whole of English literature or history he would resort to a system of "tips," or a memoria technica, and his acquaintance with the subject would be only superficial; whereas the specification of a particular period and particular authors gave him a fair chance of acquiring a solid groundwork in an important part of our history.

  AGRICULTURAL CHILDREN BILL.
  (The Lord Henniker.)

  (No. 185.) THIRD READING. BILL PASSED.
  Bill read 3a (according to Order) with the Amendments.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid he had again to propose the Amendment which he submitted on the Report. Reformatory schools were under inspection, and were under the Secretary of State for the Home Department. They were placed under general rules and regulations, part of one of which was that—
  "The secular instruction shall consist of reading, spelling, writing, and ciphering, and, as far as practicable, the elements of history, geography, social economy, and drawing. It shall be given for three hours daily."
  The rules for industrial schools made the same provision. The Secretary of State had power to deduct from the grant if these rules were not complied with. Under these circumstances there was surely a sufficient safeguard that the children would be properly educated. The intention of the Education Act was not to interfere with these schools, and. he certainly would have inserted a clause in the first instance had he not imagined they were exempted from the restrictions of the Bill by virtue of the Acts under which they were established. As to the particular school he had mentioned in Northamptonshire, where the labour of the children was let, he found the educational portion of the instruction spoken of most highly in the last Report of the Inspector, as indeed it was in most cases in other schools throughout England and Scotland. The Bill would affect but very few children, it was true, as the account given of the admissions to reformatory schools in 1871 would. show. Out of 1,575 admitted, all but 28 were above 10; 1,340 (or about three-fourths) were above 12,

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  and 760 (or nearly half) were above 14 years of age. In order, however, to avoid interference with special Acts, and with the good work which these schools were doing, he proposed this clause. He must remind their Lordships that, if the clause of exemption was not inserted, children in these schools could not profit by the exemptions of the Bill, for no doubt schools would be provided everywhere within two miles, and in this case, under the interpretation clause, they could never qualify for a certificate of attendances or of proficiency; and no one could say for a moment that children ought to be educated away from the reformatory school to which they had been sent—in fact, no manager would consent to such a course being adopted. In deference to the opinion of the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond), so good a friend to education and to this measure, he would gladly have proposed an addition to the clause. There was a great deal in the objection of the noble Duke, but he found it almost, if not quite, impossible to meet it. For the reasons he had stated, and after representations made to him by experienced managers of reformatory schools, he did not think it right that these schools should be included in the Bill, and he hoped their Lordships would agree to the addition to the clause for the purpose of exempting them.
  Amendment moved, at end of Clause 10, insert—
  "Nor shall the said provisions apply in the case of any child for the time being detained in a certified reformatory school or in a certified industrial school within the meaning of the Reformatory Schools Acts, 1866 and 1872, and the Industrial Schools Acts, 1866 and 1872, respectively."—(The Lord Henniker.)
  After a few words from the Marquess of SALISBURY, the Marquess of RIPON, and the Duke of RICHMOND,
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

ARMY—MILITIA RESERVE.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OP GALLOWAYrose to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the conditions under which militiamen were induced to enrol in the Militia Reserve
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  Force during the years 1868, 1869, 1870, 1871, and 1872 may not be annulled retrospectively as proposed by paragraph 1, clause 38, of the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces Circular, dated War Office, 21st April, 1873; but that the operation of this clause shall commence only from the date of its issue. The noble Lord the Under Secretary for War had, on the 13th of June, been asked a Question by his noble Friend (the Marquess of Exeter), respecting the amount of bounty which was refused to men of the Militia Reserve who enlisted in 1868, and whose term of service did not expire till after the training of 1873; and he (the Earl of Galloway) must say that the answer the noble Lord gave in return to the Question was anything but satisfactory. He thought, indeed, that something like a breach of faith—unintentional, no doubt—had been committed by the War Office towards the men who had enlisted in the Militia Reserve. In 1868, it was thought advisable to establish a new military force called the Militia Reserve. The conditions of entering it were that an ordinary militiaman who met with the approval of his commanding officer, and who had been two years in the force, might be enrolled in the Militia Reserve, whereby he became available for drafting into any regular regiment during his five years in the event of either actual or imminent declaration of war. The point in dispute was the amount of emolument this man became entitled to after enrolment in the Reserve. The original Order was issued on the 9th of May, 1868; and that was followed by an explanatory Memorandum on the 23rd of April, 1869. He maintained the meaning of the original Memorandum was the man should be paid £1 on attestation, and £1 at the close of every subsequent training during his Reserve engagement; but in the explanatory Memorandum the second "£1" was omitted. But without this the Memorandum had no meaning whatever. The understanding these men believed to have been come to with them was that they should receive £1 on entering and £1 a-year for each of the five successive yearly trainings which they agreed to serve. In 1868, they were enlisted, and would consequently be entitled to £6 in 1873. Hitherto the men had received their £1 every year; but on the 23rd of of April in the present year an Order

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  was issued from the War Office stating that to preclude misunderstandings as to the Militia Reserve bounty, the Militia Reserve man was only entitled to receive for his five years' service a total of £5. The men would not understand this as a performance of the engagement made with them. It must be remembered that ordinary Militiamen made many sacrifices in entering the Reserve force. In the first place, at the end of four years' service he received £1 6s.; he got on being enrolled 15 s., which made £2 1s. Added to this he generally got a free gift and the price of his kit, which made altogether about £6. He contended that under all the circumstances of the case the decision of the War Office was a breach of faith, and he hoped it was not yet too late to rectify it. It might be followed by very serious consequences. For example, the regiment which he had the honour of commanding, assembled last week, but the number of men absent amounted to at least 40 per cent. He would have to join in the course of the following week, and what was he to do? He was told by a high military authority that he ought to arrest and punish those who absented themselves as so many deserters; but how was he to accomplish that? In the first place, the police did not display any great energy in arresting deserters from the Militia, because they did not now receive any reward for exercising that part of their duty, and he feared that in many cases they sympathized with the offenders. There were already many grievances alleged, and if this one were added he thought this old constitutional force would dwindle away to a considerable extent.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the conditions under which militiamen were induced to enrol in the Militia Reserve Force during the years 1868, 1869, 1870, 1871, and 1872 may not be annulled retrospectively, as proposed by paragraph 1, clause 38, of the Auxiliary and Reserve Forces Circular, dated War Office, 21st April 1873, but that the operation of this clause shall commence only from the date of its issue.—(The Earl of Galloway.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, the difficulty, in so far as it had practically arisen, was limited to those Militia Reserve men who engaged in 1868, and whose engagement expired this year. After the conversation which took place some time ago he had com-
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  municated with his noble Friend opposite, and had also referred to the documents. The question was under what contract did those men engage. The terms of their engagement were to be found in the Act of 1867, and in the Regulation of 1868, which was signed by Sir John Pakington. When he gave his answer to the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Exeter) at that time, he believed that the engagement was for a service of five years in consideration of a payment of £5. He still believed that this was intended, and he should not despair of bringing forward a good technical argument for refusing the sixth £1 to those men who had only five trainings. But this was not a case for such technical arguments. The Government were dealing with an important force, whose education as a rule was not very high, and any appearance of bad faith was to be avoided. Acting under this view, he had laid the documents before the Lord Chancellor, and begged him to advise him what was the contract apparent upon the face of the papers, regardless of technical construction. The noble and learned Lord had advised him that its obvious interpretation did not exclude the payment of a sixth £1 to those men who had engaged in 1868 on account of the training of 1873. They would therefore receive the sixth £1, not as a matter of right, but because Her Majesty's Government thought that if there was a doubt as to interpretation that doubt should be ruled in their favour. As a consequence, all the Militia Reserve men similarly circumstanced, and who engaged after 1868, but before the issue of the Circular of 1873, would get their sixth £1 if their fifth training was held within the period of their engagement. This difficulty would, he trusted, not arise in the case of future engagements, because a Bill was now in progress whereby Her Majesty's Government proposed to extend the service in the Militia Reserve from five to six years, with a bounty of £6—£1 for each year's liability.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHexpressed his great satisfaction at hearing the statement of the noble Marquess, because there was great dissatisfaction among these men when they were told they were not to receive the bounty this year. Whatever might be the noble Marquess's estimation of the education

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  of those men, they were at all events shrewd enough to form a judgment as to their rights.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  PREVENTION OF FRAUDS ON CHARITABLE FUNDS BILL. (No. 122.)
  (The Earl of Shaftesbury.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to put an end to those fraudulent cases in which, under the name of charitable associations, certain persons succeeded in obtaining money from the public, which they misapplied, and spent for their own purposes. The Charity Organization Society, of the labours of which he could not speak too highly, had clearly shown to what an extent the fraudulent system to which he referred was carried. That Society had a local committee in almost every district in London, and had done everything in its power to bring offenders to justice. As to the associations against which its efforts were directed, their committees consisted, for the most part, of mere dummies, the names upon them representing persons who had no existence. In a vast number of instances there was only one man, having a small room, who issued reports and collected money, which he spent after his own fashion. The present law was not sufficient to deal with this matter—as in the instance of the Bible and Clothing Society, which had been prosecuted by the Charity Organization Society. It was shown that very considerable sums of money had been received by that society; but as it was proved that a certain number of Bibles and a certain quantity of clothing—merely nominal—had been purchased, it was relieved from the charge of obtaining money under false pretences, and the charge was dismissed; and he feared the result would be the same in most cases, the law being imperfect. He had a list of 16 of these societies whose receipts averaged, he found, £13,410 a-year, and he believed he was within the mark when he stated that between £300,000 and £400,000 per annum was
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  raised in that way throughout the country. It was desirable, then, he thought, that the law should, as far as possible, be brought to bear on abuses of that kind, for the perpetration of which the penny post, the telegraph, and other modern improvements afforded increased facilities. To meet the evil he proposed that every charitable society should keep proper books of account, containing particulars of all money or goods received by them, the names of the donors, and the manner in which all moneys received have been applied, a register of all officers, agents, and others; and should in every prospectus or report, declare where these registers might be inspected. He further provided for the inspection of these books by any person interested, or his agent; and that it should publish yearly a balance-sheet to these provisions; and to that every honest society would not, he felt sure, have any objection to submit. Their Lordships would observe that he did not propose the enactment of any new law, but for an application of existing laws—such as the Larcenies Act, the Charitable Trust Act, and the Companies Act—to cases of abuse which were not adequately dealt with by the existing law. It might be contended that it would be better to have the societies registered; but he did not think the registration of Friendly Societies had produced any great effect in the prevention of frauds; in fact some of the greatest frauds had been practised under cover of the Friendly Societies Act; while as to the argument that there was no good reason why the Legislature should try to protect people against the consequences of their own folly, he would merely observe that a woman had only the other day been sent to prison with hard labour merely for procuring money by fortune-telling, while the law also stepped in to protect shareholders against fraud. If their Lordships gave a second reading to the Bill he did not propose to press the measure any further this Session, but he desired to have it circulated throughout the country, with a view to effective legislation, if possible, next year.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Shaftesbury.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he had no doubt of the excellence

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  of the noble Earl's object in bringing forward that measure; but he thought the mode in which he sought to accomplish that object was open to great objection. There were a large number of people who chose to intrust their money for charitable purposes without taking the least precaution to ascertain the character of the persons to whom they intrusted it, or the reality of the object for which the money was asked; and by this Bill it was proposed to protect those people by placing every person, whether innocent or guilty, under a series of restrictions and regulations which would be intolerable. The noble Earl had referred to a considerable number of societies in London; but he would ask him to consider what the effect of the Bill would be upon many of the small charities in country districts? Take the case of a parochial clothing fund, in which the wife of the parson associated with a few other ladies in the parish to benefit the poor. Those ladies would be required by the Bill to keep or cause to be kept a book or books containing particulars of all moneys or goods received by them; particulars of the manner in which all moneys received by them had been paid or applied; to keep a register of all officers, agents, collectors, and all other persons, whether paid or unpaid, who might be in any wise employed by or assist in the management of such charitable association. They were further required to allow donors to inspect the register and all other books or documents for at least two hours during every day in which the office of the association was open for business, and also to send them every year a report and balance-sheet, giving full, true, and particular accounts of all receipts and disbursements. Any person contravening these provisions was to be liable to a penalty of 40 s. for every offence. It was very hard to impose those severe restrictions on persons who were pursuing a laudable object in various parts of the country. If the noble Earl could not devise any other remedy except by harassing and worrying those innocent people, it would be better to let fools remain unprotected. Clause 4 declared that any person who, among other things, destroyed, altered, mutilated, or falsified any book or paper belonging to any charitable association, should be liable to be imprisoned and kept to hard
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  labour for any period not exceeding six months. So that if a clerk within the office of a charitable association tore up a paper he might be sent to prison for six months. Again, a like penalty was imposed on those who published or concurred in publishing any written statement or account which turned out to be false. The impression left upon his mind by a perusal of the Bill was that it had not passed through the hands of a Parliamentary draftsman; the penalties proposed were out of all proportion to the offences dealt with; and any clear case of fraud such as was here provided against would be much better dealt with by the ordinary law.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORagreed that the Bill, however excellent in intention, was entirely impracticable, and it was a serious question whether their Lordships should give it a second reading. The effect of passing it would simply be that no man or woman of sense would have anything whatever to do with any charitable institution. Let their Lordships only conceive of excellent charitable ladies in town or country, not accustomed, perhaps, to business, if they "omitted, or concurred in omitting, any material particular in any book of account or other document," being liable, without the option even of a fine, to be kept to hard labour for any term not exceeding six months, and if the offence were repeated, to be sentenced to penal servitude for a term not exceeding seven years.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that after what had fallen from the Lord Chancellor, he would not press their Lordships to read the Bill the second time. But it was no encouragement to any person wishing to remedy a flagrant and admitted abuse to find himself at the outset met, not with the support which he might have expected, but with language such as might make him shrink from his attempt.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORassured the noble Earl that he did not attribute to him, but to the draftsman of his Bill, the provisions which he had criticized. The noble Earl would admit that those who were responsible for the administration of the law, and for advising either House of Parliament as to the effect of Bills to amend the law, ought to be most careful before they committed themselves to provisions of

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  the nature of those to which he had referred, and that if they were of opinion that more harm than good would be done by them, it was the duty of one occupying his position to point out that such, in his opinion, would be the effect of the measure.
  Motion and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.