Lords Sitting of 24 February 1873

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Horses, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLs—Second Reading—Epping Forest* (19), discharged.
Select Committee—Regulation of Railways (Prevention of Accidents)* (23), nominated.

NAVY—H.M.S. "DEVASTATION."

  POSTPONEMENT OF NOTICE.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNrose to make a request of his noble Friend on the cross-Benches (the Earl of Lauderdale) whose Notice on the subject of the Devastation stood as the first Order of the Day. He wished in their Lordships' House to make an appeal to his noble Friend which he had already made to him in private. Tile commissioning of the Devastation, as their Lordships were aware, was an occurrence of no ordinary interest. She was believed to be not only the most powerful vessel of war in the world, but she was also one of a new type, and the first unmasted sea-going ironclad that had as yet been launched. The First Lord of the Admiralty intended when moving the Navy Estimates in the course of the next fortnight to make a full and complete statement with reference to her, and therefore he now ventured to ask his noble Friend to postpone
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  his Question until the Navy Estimates had been moved. His reason for asking the noble Earl to postpone the matter was that he felt sure it would be more satisfactory that all the various points with reference to the Devastation which had excited public interest should be dealt with completely and simultaneously, and that above all it was important to preclude the possibility of erroneous inferences being drawn from an answer to an isolated question. After the Navy Estimates had been moved he should be very glad to afford the noble Earl any information in his power.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEsaid, he had intended to ask his noble Friend whether the Devastation was to be inclined in order to ascertain her stability at various angles, and as to what trials were to be made at sea to ascertain her efficiency and safety as a sea-going vessel in bad weather, such as a sea-going vessel is liable to encounter at all seasons. He felt much interested in the experiment of constructing such a ship as the Devastation. He was not one of those who had held that she would be a good sea-going vessel, but he thought that a trial of such an iron-clad should be made in order to decide the question. After the appeal made to him by his noble Friend, and the reasons stated for that appeal, he could not hesitate to postpone his Question.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETdesired to say a word as to the inconvenience of allowing Notices to stand on the Paper of the day for which they had been put down, and giving no intimation to noble Lords beforehand that they were not to be brought on. He had come down to the House at some inconvenience, but he should not have done so if he had not believed that he should have an opportunity of making some observations on the subject of the Devastation. He could not see any good reason for postponing the matter. It could not be discussed among a whole mass of figures such as entered into the Navy Estimates; but if the subject of the Devastation was taken by itself their Lordships might have a useful discussion on the state of the vessel, which he believed was far from satisfactory.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEcould assure the noble Duke it was not his fault that he had not had notice of the intended postponement. He was not aware

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  that the noble Earl (the Earl of Camper-down) intended to make this request until it was too late to give notice.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he regretted that his noble Friend (the Duke of Somerset) should have suffered any inconvenience. The request for a postponement was only made to the noble Earl (the Earl of Lauderdale) on Saturday night, and until their Lordships met this afternoon he had been unable to inform the noble Duke that there would be a postponement. He thought the noble Duke would himself agree in thinking that the First Lord of the Admiralty would desire to have this opportunity of making his statement with regard to the Devastation before the subject was discussed. He must demur to his noble Friend's statement as to the vessel being in an unsatisfactory condition.

  CHURCH TEMPORALITIES COMMISSIONS (IRELAND)—PURCHASE OF RENT CHARGE.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDasked, as to the Irish Church Act, 1869, What proportion of "owners" have applied to the Church Temporalities Commissioners to purchase their rent-charge in lieu of tithes, and whether it was intended to propose any change in the conditions under which rent-charge in lieu of tithes may now be purchased (under the 32nd section)? His reason for asking the Question was that it is generally understood that the progress made so far had been very slow, not more than 10 per cent of the proprietors concerned having as yet applied to purchase. As one of the proprietors he was not surprised that such should be the case. They had from the first protested against the conditions laid upon them, and although last year some modifications were made and some advantage given to them on the score of an allowance as deduction for payment of poor rate, still they hoped for yet better terms; and there was a general impression that the Government had some measure in preparation—either by the compulsory conversion of all tithe rent-charge into a Government rent-charge, to expire at a fixed time, or by some other arrangement for the purpose of expediting the proceedings of the Commissioners. As an instance of the delay which had been
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  caused by the prevailing uncertainty, he might mention that on the 19th of February, 1872, he applied to purchase a tithe rent-charge of £9 6s. 9d., and the purchase was not yet completed. It had advanced considerably, but the transaction was a very small one to extend over more than a year. He did not, however, make any charge against the Commissioners—they had had a very complicated matter to deal with. The change made in the law last year, small as it was, had interrupted their proceedings, and it was for some time uncertain what the result of their action might be; but it was now known that there would be a considerable surplus available for the advancement of learning, or for the improvement of the breed of horses or other public purpose, and he hoped to hear that some arrangement was in view to enable owners to purchase their rent-charge on more favourable conditions.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, it was quite true that only a very small number of owners in Ireland—only 4,700, which was a very small proportion—had applied for commutation under the Irish Church Act; but at present Her Majesty's Government had no intention of bringing in any measure on the subject.
  House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.