Lords Sitting of 17 February 1873

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Private Bills, appointed and nominated; Opposed Private Bills, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILL—Third Reading—Turks and Caicos Islands* (2), and passed.

EMIGRATION TO BRAZIL—WARWICKSHIRE LABOURERS.

  ADDRESS FOR A PAPER.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONrose to move for Copy of a letter addressed by the Vicar of Napton to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, describing the condition of certain Warwickshire labourers who were emigrated to Cananea in Brazil, and to inquire whether such description was substantially correct. Their Lordships would probably remember to have seen in the newspapers six or seven weeks ago a statement of a certain num-

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  ber of labourers who went from the Midland Counties to several places in Brazil. According to the story told by those hapless people—for he must so call them—very deceptive statements had induced them to emigrate to Brazil. It was stated that they would receive grants of land free, or at a very small price; that houses would be provided for them; that they would be forwarded up the country free of expense; and that good food was abundant and cheap, and of all kinds and descriptions. They went to Brazil; time passed, and at length letters had been received from them which gave a different view of things in Brazil from what had tempted them to emigrate. They complained that, so far from finding houses provided for them, they had to sleep on the clamp earth, and that so far from finding food either abundant or cheap, many of them had been reduced almost to starvation. He desired, therefore, to ask his noble Friend the Foreign Secretary whether he had any objection to the production of a letter to which he referred in his Notice; and also whether, as the result of inquiries which, doubtless, he had made, he had found the statements in that letter to be correct? He himself had very little doubt on the subject. He feared that the case of those labourers was not an exceptional one, because for a long time past there had been a system of inducing labourers to emigrate, and English labourers were very ignorant and very easily deceived. No doubt his noble Friend had endeavoured to do his duty, because he (the Earl of Carnarvon) perceived that within the last few days there had been a warning from the Emigration Commissioners. As showing their Lordships the sort of inducement held out to agricultural labourers to go to Brazil, he would quote an advertisement which appeared in The Labourers' Union Chronicle. It was in these terms—
  "The Brazilian Consul General in Liverpool advances money to every agriculturist who, with his family, will emigrate to the colonies of Brazil, where, besides other favours, he may have an allowance of 2s. per day while waiting for his first plantation to grow. Any amount advanced will be repayable in instalments in seven years' time."
  Now, he would ask their Lordships to for one moment compare with the advantages described in that advertisement the actual truth as they now knew it from official documents laid before Par-
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  liament. As the subject is one of such importance he would venture to detain their Lordships for a few minutes by reading one or two other extracts. Mr. Macdonell, Chargé d'Affaires at Buenos Ayres, writing on the River Plate Republics as a field for emigration, said—
  "The English emigrant will find here no encouragement; no similarity of language, habits, or religion; no liberal land laws, no economical and ready collocation on tracts of land traced aid marked out, no ready access to wood and water, no exemption from taxation, no ready proximity to markets for the sale of produce, and but scant and a merely nominal protection for life and property."
  Further on Mr. Macdonell observed—
  "The criminal statistics of England give one case of murder annually for every 178,000 inhabitants; in the Argentine Republic, according to official returns, one out of every 900 is yearly assassinated. In England the escape of a criminal forms the exception; here, the imprisonment."
  These were statements by Mr. Macdonell. Now hear what Consul Dundas said in his Report on Santos, in Brazil—
  "I cannot say I would recommend any immigrant to come here, because I regret to have to confess that I have no confidence whatever in the treatment the immigrant will meet with. As t: rule, there seems to be an absurd jealousy with regard to foreigners, though there is no objection to make use of foreign labour and foreign capital."
  Lastly, he would read an extract from the Report made by Mr. Phipps on emigration to Brazil—
  "By the present law, if a foreign labourer is dismissed on account of illness he shall pay at once to the hirer any sums that may be owing. If he is dismissed for unskilfulness, in default of payment he shall be sentenced to hard labour on public works till he has repaid, together with costs. If there are no public works he shall be committed to prison for not more than two years. If he absents himself from work without just cause he shall be imprisoned till he has paid the double of what is due."
  The English labourer, when he complained so much of his treatment in England, should know that if he emigrated to some countries he might find himself in an infinitely worse position when subjected to such laws and such regulations as were described in these extracts. It was perfectly true that wages were much higher in those places than in England; but when the high price of living and the other disadvantages to with the immigrant was subjected were taken into account, it would be found that the balance could scarcely be said to be in favour of

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  such countries as those referred to in the extracts he had read to their Lordships. He must state that, from his own knowledge, he believed emigration to be a most excellent thing; but it could be made beneficial only under certain conditions, and how anyone could be tempted to prefer as a field of emigration those countries to which he had been referring rather than emigrate to British colonies it was not very easy to imagine. It appeared to him that those who drew up deceptive statements on this subject and also those who gave them publicity incurred great responsibility; and knowing himself the facts of a very similar case to that of the Warwickshire labourers, he thought it his duty to read these extracts in order to secure for them as wide a notice as possible and thus prevent other poor persons from becoming the victims of deception. He also begged to ask his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs the Question of which he had given Notice.
  Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for, Copy of letter addressed by the Vicar of Napton to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, describing the condition of certain Warwickshire labourers who were emigrated to Cananea in Brazil.—(The Earl of Carnarvon.)
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was very glad his noble Friend had gone beyond the Notice he put on the Paper, because he could not conceive anything more desirable or more useful than the sort of warning he had taken occasion to give. It had lately been the painful duty of the Foreign Office to furnish such information to the Emigration Commissioners as would enable them to warn intending emigrants of the fate likely to await them if they went to certain foreign countries. Great complaint had been made of their having done so; but, however averse he might be to adopt any course which might seem unfriendly to nations with which they were disposed to keep up the most cordial relations, he had felt it his paramount duty to give every warning in his power to persons who were unable on these subjects to form a competent opinion for themselves. It was impossible not to place greater reliance on the Reports of Consuls, who had no interest in the matter, than on the accounts of foreigners, or even of our countrymen who might not be disinterested. As to
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  the letter to which his noble Friend had called attention, it was received at the Foreign Office on the 26th of December last. A copy was immediately forwarded to the Emigration Commissioners, and another copy to our Minister at Rio, with a request that he would at once make inquiries and obtain full information on the subject, and if the facts were verified, communicate with the Brazilian Government, who, no doubt, would be glad to remedy such a state of things. He (Earl Granville) could not give any opinion as to the facts contained in the letter until he received a reply from our Minister in Brazil, and therefore his noble Friend would see that it would not be right to produce the document, as it contained attacks on individuals. Until he received the reply he could not lay the letter before their Lordships.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

LANDED ESTATES COURT. REGISTRATION OF IMPROVEMENTS.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIMasked Her Majesty's Government, When the Court of Land Cases Reserved at Dublin will make rules for the registration of improvements under the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, in the Landed Estates Court; and when the Government intend to appoint a second Judge to the Landed Estates Court? The noble Earl stated that, although two years and a-half had elapsed, no rules had yet been made, and great confusion would arise unless they were speedily framed. Under existing circumstances, when there was so much property coming under the operation of the Act, he thought it highly desirable that another Judge should be appointed.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, that the Court for Land Cases Reserved had already made the rules referred to by the noble Earl. It was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to fill up the vacant judgeship; but it would be necessary to introduce a Bill for the abolition of one judgeship, and also to provide for the duties of the remaining Judge during temporary absence. When this Bill came before their Lordships the noble Earl would have a convenient opportunity of offering such criticisms as he might think fit on the

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  abolition of the one judgeship, and the Government of replying to those criticisms.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDasked when the Bill would be introduced?
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEcould not answer the question of the noble Earl, nor could he say the Bill would be introduced in their Lordships' House in the first instance.

  CENTRAL ASIA—THE BOUNDARY LINE.—QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET: My Lords, I have a Question to put to my noble Friend the Secretary of State for India as to an alleged error in drawing the boundary line of Afghanistan, or, at least, of the territories under the dominion of the Ameer of Cabul. I do not pretend myself to know anything of the geography of Central Asia, nor do I believe there is any very accurate information on the subject to be obtained in this country. But as we have lately seen the great inconvenience of making treaties without proper geographical knowledge, I am anxious to know, Whether with regard to the Central Asian question there has been any error in drawing the boundary of Afghanistan or the territories under the dominion of the Ameer of Cabul? I also have to ask whether the Government can give the House any sketch or outline map which may enable us to judge of the boundary line which has been agreed upon according to the Papers on the Table?
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: I am obliged to my noble Friend for putting his Question, because undoubtedly there has been an impression—I will not say in the public mind, but in the mind of some writers in the Press—that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in indicating the boundaries of the two provinces of Badakshan and Wakhan, has made a geographical error. Now, I am bound to say that if the Foreign Office had made any error in the matter they would have been led into it by the India Office; because, of course, the Foreign Office applied to us for information. But I am happy to assure my noble Friend that, as far as I can understand, no error has been committed. A very careful memorandum on the frontier of those provinces was drawn
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  at the India Office from maps and most authentic information furnished by Sir Henry Rawlinson, who, besides being a most distinguished member of our Council, is also President of the Royal Geographical Society. That memorandum was sent out to India, and there it was discussed and considered by Lord Mayo. It was sent home in a Despatch, drawn up, I am sorry to say, too late to receive his signature; but it was signed by Lord Napier after the noble Earl's death. That Despatch entirely approves the line drawn by Sir Henry Rawlinson, which follows the Oxus up to a point where it branches into two comparatively small streams—one coming down to the Hindoo Koosh, and the other to a small lake. The original intention was to adopt the southern branch, running down to the Hindoo Koosh; but there are a very considerable number of villages on both sides of the stream; and by Sir Henry Rawlinson's advice the right hand branch in the direction of the lake, beyond which there are no villages and no inhabited country, was taken. That boundary was fully assented to by the Government of India; and I have every reason to believe it is perfectly correct. With regard to the sketch map, I may point out that there has just been published a new edition of the well-known book of Captain Wood—A Journey to the Sources of the River Oxus. He was the only European who ever saw the country, and a new edition of that work, edited by Colonel Yule, contains a map in which the boundaries of Badakshan and Wakhan are defined almost exactly as they have been by the Foreign Office.

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Standing Order Committee on, appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

  Ld. President.

  E. Verulam.

  Ld. Privy Seal.

  E. Morley.

  D. Somerset.

  E. Stradbroke.

  M. Winchester.

  E. Amherst.

  M. Lansdowne.

  Ld. Chamberlain.

  M. Bath.

  V. Hawarden.

  M. Ailesbury.

  V. Hardinge.

  E. Devon.

  V. Eversley.

  E. Airlie.

  Ld. Steward.

  E. Hardwicke.

  L. Camoys.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Saye and Sele.

  E. Belmore.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  E. Romney.

  L. Sondes.

  E. Chichester.

  L. Digby.

  E. Powis.

  L. Sheffield.

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  L. Colchester.

  L. Belper.

  L. Silchester.

  L. Ebury.

  L. De Tabley.

  L. Egerton.

  L. Skelmersdale.

  L. Hylton.

  L. Portman.

  L. Penrhyn.

  OPPOSED PRIVATE BILLS.
  The Lords following; viz.,

  M. Lansdowne.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  Ld. Steward.

  L. Skelmersdale.

  were appointed, with the Chairman of Committees, a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.