Lords Sitting of 11 February 1873

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Cove Chapel, Tiverton, Marriages Legalization* (11); Regulation of Railways (Prevention of Accidents)* (12).

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.

  HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
  THE TREASURER OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Lord POLTIMORE)reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:$
  MY LORDS,
  I HAVE received with much pleasure your loyal and dutiful Address.
  IN all your endeavours to promote the welfare of my people you may rely with confidence on my sympathy and co-operation.

  THE SAN JUAN AWARD—BOUNDARY LINE.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE,in rising to ask a Question of which he had given Notice, as to what steps had been taken to settle the boundary line in the San Juan Question under the award of the German Emperor, said, his inquiry was a nautical one. He had some knowledge of the channel in respect of which

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  the Emperor of Germany had made his Award—though the Haro was the channel, the boundary line was still an unsettled question. He therefore wished to impress on the Government the necessity of having the line itself accurately traced on an authenticated chart, to be signed by Commissioners duly authorized in behalf of each country. Unless this were done, he was fearful of many difficulties arising in future. When he was an officer in Her Majesty's Navy it used to be said that the man who went to sea without a chart knew little of his business. Well, he thought that those who attempted to settle this matter in 1846 went to sea without a chart, or, if they had one, this line was not marked on it. Although the Haro was the widest and deepest of the channels in those waters, its depth was a great drawback to the navigation. There was no anchorage in it, and its course was something like three Z's. The tides, instead of running through the channel, ran across it. For steamers it did very well, but it was not by any means suitable for large sailing vessels such as those which carried timber on those seas. If the Americans chose to fortify San Juan our ships must pass under their guns. The Rosario should have been the channel, and we ought to have got it, seeing that up to 1846 the Columbia river was the clear and distinct boundary. We had given up 63,000 square miles of land, and a country in which there was much gold, to the Americans. What we had given up was value for £20,000,000; while the Americans had never given up anything to us. He must make a slight correction in that last statement, for he believed they had given us up the navigation of the Zucan, a river in the Arctic regions. While we insisted on the Rosario, the Americans insisted on the Haro Channel. Lord Russell proposed as a compromise the Middle Channel, and farther than that we ought never to have gone. We were on good terms with the Indians, while there was war to the knife between them and the Americans. This might lead to squabbles with the Indians coming from our islands. Then quarrels would be likely to arise in consequence of the different tariffs of this country and the United States. The Alabama Claims were only a joke to this matter, so great was its importance, and the sacrifice we had
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  made; but he was of opinion that the Treaty of Washington was a degrading one as regards this country. As for the Americans, the only question with them had been how much money could they get out of us. He begged to ask, Whether any and what measures had been taken to finally settle the boundary line in the San Juan quarter, and whether it was to be marked down on a sea chart and signed by Commissioners appointed for that purpose by both nations? That was the Question he had put on the Paper; but he begged in addition to ask what construction was to be placed on these words of the Treaty of 1846—"Provided always that said channel shall be free for the navigation of both parties?"
  EARL GRANVILLE: The noble and gallant Earl has not confined himself to the Question of which he has given Notice. He has gone—as he had a perfect right to do$into many matters more or less connected with this question. He has given us the history of the last 28 years connected with it. I think, as to his observations on the Treaty of 1846, he will recollect that as it was made by a Conservative Government, it is not my business to defend it. As to the hypothetical cases he has put—whether the Americans will regret the Award having been in their favour—it is impossible to give him a definite answer; but I will give him a clear, and, I think, a perfectly satisfactory answer to the Question of which he has given Notice. The noble and gallant Earl expressed much alarm that, this question being decided against us, some points should still be left open to future misconception. I think that alarm reasonable on the part of the noble and gallant Earl. The Treaty of 1846 professed to decide what should be the boundaries between our possessions in North America and the United States. Although it was not in the Treaty, a Commission was appointed for the purpose of drawing the line described by that Treaty. The Commissioners met, and were perfectly agreed as to the line until it reached a certain point on the Georgian Gulf. Then they differed. The American Commissioner contended that it ought to be drawn down the Haro Channel. We contended that it ought to be drawn down the Rosario Channel. Since that time the noble and gallant

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  Earl knows how impossible it has been, notwithstanding various attempts, to settle the question by arbitration or compromise. As I said the other evening, the compromise proposed by Earl Russell was to take the Middle Channel, which was not known at the time the Treaty of 1846 was made, and was quite a different line from the Rosario Channel, for which we had always contended. Considered as a compromise, this had a great disadvantage of giving us all that we cared to have and taking away from the Americans all they wished for; because all that either party cared for was the Island of San Juan, and the Middle Channel would have given us that. The Commissioners having differed on the point to which I have referred, various negotiations followed, and the question has at last been settled by an Award unfavourable to us. On the 21st of October last the Emperor of Germany made his Award; and we thought it right without loss of time to take measures to carry the Award into effect. In the first place, we gave instructions for the evacuation of that part of San Juan of which we held military occupation, and then we took steps to obviate the difficulty which the noble and gallant Earl has pointed out. Fortunately, Admiral Prevost, our member of the Commission, had never given up his Commission; and we therefore sent at once to the Government of the United States a proposal that the Commission should resume its labours; and we also suggested that, as a complete survey of those waters had been made, it would not be necessary for the Commissioners to meet on the spot. At the same time we desired the Hydrographer of the Navy, with Admiral Prevost, to go over the chart and draw the exact line which they considered to be in conformity with the Award of the Emperor of Germany. They did so. Soon afterwards an answer came from the United States, agreeing to the renewal of the Commission, and also agreeing that the survey was complete, and that it was not necessary to have any further examination on the spot. The Government of the United States sent to this country at the same time a chart, on which was drawn the line according to their view, and I am happy to say that, though not absolutely the same as ours, it is as nearly identical as could be expected. We have sent
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  Out Admiral Prevost to the United States, with power, conjointly with Sir Edward Thornton, to sign four maps, two to be retained by each country, and to come to a decision as to the exact line where there was some variation between the lines marked on the charts I have just mentioned. The United States Government have taken the necessary steps with the Senate to authorize what they have done, and I hope that in a very short time indeed this matter will be completely and satisfactorily settled.

  OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS AND OFFICE OF THE GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD.
  Select Committee on, appointed: The Lords following were named of the Committee:

  Ld. Chancellor.

  E. Granville,

  Ld. President.

  E. Kimberley.

  Ld. Privy Seal.

  Ld. Chamberlain.

  D. Richmond.

  V. Hawarden.

  D. Saint Albans.

  V. Eversley.

  M. Lansdowne.

  Ld. Steward.

  M. Salisbury.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  M. Bath.

  L. Redesdale.

  E. Devon.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Tankerville.

  L. Skelmersdale.

  E. Stanhope.

  L. Aveland.

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Cairns.

  E. Malmesbury.

  COVE CHAPEL, TIVERTON, MARRIAGES LEGALIZATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill "for legalizing certain marriages solemnized in Cove Chapel, in Pitt portion in Tiverton, Devon"—Was presented by The Lord Bishop of Exeter; read 1a. (No. 11.)

  REGULATION OF RAILWAYS (PREVENTION OF ACCIDENTS) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill "to amend the law relating to the regulation of Railways"—Was presented by The Lord BUCKHURST; read 1a. (No. 12.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Five o'clock.