Lords Sitting of 4 August 1873

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Beading—Committee negatived—Third Reading—Duke of Edinburgh's Annuity (273); Consolidated Fund (Appropriation), and passed.
Third Reading—Sanitary Act (1866) Amendment (Ireland)* (262); Telegraphs* (266); Militia Pay Acts Amendment* (269), and passed.

DUKE OF EDINBURGH'S ANNUITY BILL—(No. 273.)
(The Earl Granville.)
DUKE OF EDINBURGH'S ANNUITY BILL—(No. 273.)

  SECOND READING. THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  EARL GRANVILLE,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its purpose was to make a provision for the establishment of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh and Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Mario Alexandrovna. The proposal was to give the Duke an annuity of £10,000 a-year from the Consolidated Fund for his life, subject to a condition founded on a previous Act with regard to the contingency of his succeeding to the Sovereignty of a foreign State. It also gave a jointure of £6,000 a-year to the Grand Duchess in case she survived the Duke. Only last week he had the honour of moving an Address to the Crown expressing the readiness of their Lordships to concur in any reasonable provision which the other House might make, and it was cordially adopted. There had since occurred in "another place" just that very small amount of opposition which was sufficient to mark the general feeling of that House on the subject, and he had not the slightest doubt that their Lordships would manifest the same views.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Earl Granville.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he was glad to have the opportunity of bearing his testimony to the excellence of the proposal. He feared that in this House they must forego the luxury of a division and submit to a unanimous vote.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived: Then Standing Orders Nos. 37. and 38. considered (according to Order) and dispensed with: Bill read 3a, and passed.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
  (The Earl Granville.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Earl Granville.)
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, this was the only opportunity afforded to him of referring to the payment of £3,200,000 the amount of the Indemnity awarded to the United States by the Geneva Arbitration for what were called the Alabama Claims, and expressed his regret that the argument brought forward by himself on previous occasions—namely, that the re-united States could not be entitled to damages for acts committed by a section of those States—was not urged by the Government. High legal authorities had approved the argument, and had it been urged at the proper time the Indemnity would have been set aside.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORremarked that the objection, had it been urged at all, must have been preferred before the reference of the Claims to Arbitration. The United States would clearly not have consented to a reference to be met by the preliminary objection that there ought to be no reference, and when the two Powers agreed to the Arbitration the argument was ipso facto excluded. It was a question of policy whether England should agree to refer the Claims or not, and the country was very urgent with the Government that the matter should be settled, while this was the only mode of settling it.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, if the argument was excluded when Arbitration was agreed to, why was it urged in our Counter Case and repeated in our Summary? Objection founded on International Law to each separate claim was expressly reserved in the Treaty, and this was a question of International Law.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that it would be very unfortunate if it were supposed that this country had submitted to an unjust claim. He believed that, after our authorities had too late endeavoured to stop the Alabama, that they had confessed they were in the fault, and it was only a question of amount of damages. He considered that if a bystander were to see two persons fairly fighting, and were to hand a knife to one of them, by which he wounded the other, that both the assailant and the sufferer would be entitled to compensation from the abetter—he considered also that it would be contrary to law to re-open the arbitration.
  Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived: Then Standing Orders Nos. 37. and 38. considered (according to Order) and dispensed with: Bill read 3a, and passed.

UNITED STATES—CONSULAR CONVENTION—OFFENCES ON THE HIGH SEAS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD MONSON,on behalf of Lord HOUGHTON, asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any steps had been taken towards concluding a Consular Convention with the United States of America; and, whether he was prepared to include in such Convention the means of effectively punishing acts of violence committed by the subjects of either nation on the high seas?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the matter had occupied the attention of the Government for a very long time, and the difficulty that had arisen in concluding a Convention had been the necessity of some preliminary legislation on our part. Correspondence had gone on with several foreign Powers, especially with the United States, for 20 years. A Memorandum embodying the views of Her Majesty's Government led some years age to a proposal by the United States for a Convention, but difficulties arose; principally respecting the question of jurisdiction. The negotiations dropped, and had not been formally renewed with the United States; but there had been some informal communications between Sir Edward Thornton and Mr. Fish, and between General Schenck and himself. They had made some progress in the matter, and a Paper had been prepared embodying the whole question. The Foreign Office was in communication with other Departments of the Government, and he had hopes that some agreement would be arrived at during the Recess which would form the basis of legislation next Session—though he could give no absolute pledge. Of course, in any such scheme, acts of violence at sea would form an important element. Progress had also been made in another way, for by the 11th section of the Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment Act of this Session the Government were empowered by Order in Council to extend to those countries which desired it the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Acts with regard to the enlistment and dis-

  1513
  charge of seamen. He was not, therefore, without hopes that some progress would be made in a question of considerable importance both to foreign countries and to ourselves. He might add that it was absolutely necessary that something should be done, for an Article in the Treaty of Commerce with France, concluded last month, provided that this was one of the subjects which would form part of a Supplemental Convention.

PUBLIC OFFICES—NEW ADMIRALTY AND WAR OFFICES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD BEDESDALEasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether, in the plans deposited for "the Admiralty and War Offices Rebuilding Bill," all the land proposed to be taken belonged to the Crown; whether it was intended to apply to Parliament next Session for a similar Bill; whether the lessees and occupiers of any property belonging to the Crown would not have to be compensated in like manner as other lessees and occupiers if their holdings were taken compulsorily; whether, if public offices were built on the Crown lands in the plan referred to, the income from the rents now paid on those lands would not be lost; and, whether the loss of such income ought not to be calculated in estimating the expense in like manner as if such lands had to be purchased from others; whether plans had been prepared, and whether it was intended to pull down the Admiralty.
  THE DUKE OF ST. ALBANSreplied that the land proposed to be taken was not all Crown property, but the greater part of it belonged to the Crown. No determination had been arrived at respecting any application to Parliament next Session for a similar or any other Bill. There were but four lessees or occupiers of Crown land who would have to be compensated, the remainder of the houses on the Crown land being occupied by the Lords of the Admiralty, the Secretary of State for War, and the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works. The value of the Crown lands had been considered in the Estimate for the acquisition of the site for the proposed Admiralty and War Office. He need not say that when the houses were in the occupation of public Departments they would
  1514
  get no compensation for being removed. The sketch plans which were prepared would have required the existing Admiralty to be pulled down.
  LORD REDESDALEurged the advantage of concentrating the Public Offices, which were now scattered over Pall Mall, St. James's Square, Whitehall Gardens, and other localities. He objected to the demolition of the Admiralty, and other buildings, which would afford accommotion for many Government purposes, and if the line of public buildings was not continued on the west side of Parliament Street a very unsightly effect would be produced.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees had, year after year, advised the purchase of the property in the neighbourhood of King Street, and at the present time the state of the space between the India Office and Westminster Abbey was most disgraceful. If Government did not at once purchase the property, and should they hereafter be obliged to buy it, he believed they would have to pay very heavily; because he had been credibly informed that a building lease had been granted by Eton College to an eminent firm on condition of laying out £80,000 upon the land, and most unsightly warehouses might be raised, and Government might have to pay merely for pulling them down. He earnestly hoped that the warnings of the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees might be attended to in time.

THE BALLOT ACT—DECLARATIONS OF THE STATE OF THE POLLS.

  NOTICE.
  LORD DENMANgave Notice that he would early next Session call the attention of their Lordships to the delays which necessarily occurred in making the declaration of the numbers of voters at elections under the Ballot Act. When the Act was passing through Parliament, it was proposed to keep the polls open until 8 o'clock; but that would have made matters worse, for it would have been impossible to observe one of the best provisions of the great Reform Act of 1832—that the elections should be concluded in one clay. The recent election at Greenwich—through the intervention of Sunday between the unfinished counting of the votes and the declaration of the poll—showed the incon-

  1515
  venience that might arise from suspense, and it was to prevent the aggravation of this evil at a General Election that he would call the attention of their Lordships to the subject.

COUNTY COURTS (ENGLAND).

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved for a Return of the Sittings held by County Court Judges during the six months ending June 30th.
  LORD DENMANsaid, that, under the Judicature Bill, there seemed a great probability of the business of the County Courts being so extended that the new Palace of Justice would have a great many Courts quite empty. He believed that the Judicature Bill did not carry out the recommendation either of the first or second Report of the Judicature Commission, and that it was contrary to the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Lords, 1872, and, in many points, to the Report of the Select Committee of this year; and he believed that, like the Jew Bill of last century, which was brought in by a Ministry, and in the same year repealed by the same Ministry, that this Bill would undergo the same fate.
  Motion agreed to.
  Return from every County Court in England of the specific days on which the Judge sat in the six months ended the 30th June 1873, together with the following particulars, viz.:
  The County Court of holden at
  [Tabular form.]
  —(The Lord Chancellor.)

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Standing Orders 159, 176, 178, 179, 182, 184, 185 186A, 189 and Schedule referred to in Standing Order 181 (sect. 1.), considered, and amended; and to be printed as amended.—(The Chairman of Committees.) (No. 274.)
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Two o'clock.