§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Further Amendments made.
§ Clause 3 (Order of Secretary of State for appointment of ministers under 26 & 27 Vict. c. 79).
§
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND moved to insert, line 22, after ("notice")—
It shall also be lawful for the prison authority, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to revoke such appointment when the number of prisoners of that persuasion shall have for a space of twelve months fallen short of the daily average of twenty.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ On the Motion of Lord ORANMORE AND BROWNE the word "daily" was inserted before "average number"—and the words "at one time" struck out.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that as the clause now stood it was provided that no order be made requiring the appointment of a minister of any church or religious persuasion to attend at any prison if the average number of prisoners belonging to that church or persuasion confined at one time in such prison during the three years immediately preceding the date of such order has been 361 less than 10. He proposed an Amendment raising the average number to 20.
§ THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDsaid, that since the noble Duke had placed his Amendment on the Paper he had made inquiries and found the fact of requiring an average of 10 prisoners, as the Bill now required, would exclude 27 gaols from the operation of the Bill; and if the average were raised to 20, no fewer than 14 gaols in addition to those 27 would be excluded. He could not consent to this. He should prefer a revision of the salaries inserted in the Schedule.
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he did not at all desire that his Amendment should have the effect pointed out by the noble Duke. He should, therefore, withdraw the Amendment, and leave the average at 10.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEadhered to his view that it was unreasonable to appoint a minister for so small a number as 10 prisoners. There could be no difficulty in removing them to another gaol when there were a larger number. He also believed that by appointing ministers for each denomination, when there were 10 prisoners, the charge would be very large; for in half the prisons in Great Britain there were five denominations having above 10 prisoners, and though Nonconformist clergymen had not claimed the position of chaplains heretofore, yet he believed the only cause of their not having done so was because they did not wish to create a precedent in favour of the appointment of Roman Catholic priests; but that if this law passed, making such appointment obligatory, these other clergymen would certainly put in their claims. He therefore thought that no chaplain should be appointed where there were less than 30 prisoners.
§ Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ Clause 4 (Status of ministers appointed under Act, and provision for ministrations).
§ LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE moved an Amendment limiting the power of the Secretary of State to "order an expenditure exceeding £50 (not including salary of clergyman) for the purposes of this Act." If some limit were not put on 362 expenditure for this purpose it might amount to perhaps £200, though no such sum ought to be absolutely necessary. Anyone who had read the evidence given by Roman Catholic priests before the Committee must know that he was not exaggerating when he said that one of those reverend gentlemen might make a requisition for so large a sum as he had named: under the pressure of political exigencies a Home Secretary of either of the great parties in the State might yield to such a requisition, and this was what he wanted to guard against by the Amendment he now submitted to their Lordships.
LORD DYNEVORsaid, that a large sum—£50 or £60, perhaps—might be asked by a Roman Catholic priest for vestments.
§ THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDentertained no such apprehensions as those which had been expressed by the two noble Lords. An expenditure of £50 or £60 for vestments would be quite out of the question if they were intended to be used in a prison and re to be paid for out of the rates. If a priest wished for such expensive vestments his general congregation outside the walls must supply them. He thought the matter might fairly be left with the Home Secretary.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEappealed to the noble Lords present, whether the sum he stated was not a very moderate estimate for vestments, &c.?
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDwas not for any undue charge on the ratepayers; but he would prefer to leave the clause as it was, and place his confidence in the common sense of the Secretary of the State rather than insert such a limitation as that proposed by the noble Lord (Lord Oranmore and Browne).
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that seeing the feeling of the House, he would not divide on the Amendment.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Schedule—Scale of Salary—
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, the Schedule at present proposed the following scale of minimum salaries:—10 prisoners and less than 20, £25; 20 to 100, £50; 100 to 200, £100; 200 to 300, £150; more than 300, £200. He proposed to reduce the scale to £20, £40, 363 £60, £100, and £150 for each respective class.
§ Amendment made.
§ THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDsaid, he had no objection to the proposed reduction of the scale.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he had intended to propose a scale in accordance with the capitation grant paid to Roman Catholic chaplains in the Army; but, as the scale now proposed on one side was accepted on the other, he would not press his Amendment.
§ THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDremarked that there was the greatest diversity in the salaries paid to gaol chaplains in England; some were paid generously, and others received salaries that were far too low. The scale now proposed would, at all events, give a status to Roman Catholic chaplains, make them officers of prisons, and put them to a certain extent on an equality with the Protestant chaplains, which was the main object of the Bill.
§ Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Bill to be read 3a on Friday next, and to be printed as amended (No. 99).