§ ADDRESS (EARL RUSSELL). POSTPONEMENT OF MOTION.
§ EARL GRANVILLEMy Lords, before going to the Orders of the Day I hope your Lordships will allow me to renew an appeal I have already made to my noble Friend (Earl Russell) whose Motion stands first on your Minutes. Your Lordships will remember that last Monday my noble Friend postponed his Motion till to-day, in order to give your Lordships time for more consideration. Your Lordships will not have forgotten that on Thursday I stated to your Lordships that we had received from Mr. Fish an answer to my Note of the 20th of March. I described the character of that answer; and I also added that although I could give no positive assurance to the House, yet Her Majesty's Government had grounds for hoping that a settlement would be arrived at which would be satisfactory to the country. At that time, my Lords, I acknowledged the great forbearance shown by this House—and certainly I might have added the great forbearance which the House of Commons had also shown—and I expressed a hope that for a short time 268 longer that forbearance would be extended. I had some hope that my noble Friend (Earl Russell) would give an intimation that he intended to postpone, at all events for a few days, the Motion of which he had given Notice. I appealed to my noble Friend in private, as I now do in public, not to press his Motion to-day. My Lords, it is a very painful thing for me personally, as your Lordships will understand, that there should be a Motion on your Minutes in the name of my noble Friend that Motion being a Want of Confidence in Her Majesty's Government. I may add that it is also extremely painful that such a Motion being on the Minutes of your Lordships' House, I should be in the position of trying to have that Motion postponed instead of being in a position to encourage its being brought forward at the earliest possible moment. But we are dealing with a very large and a very important question of an international character, and personal feeling is entirely out of the question. It is our bounden obligation to act as we think our public duty requires; and therefore I do not scruple to tell my noble Friend that in my opinion, and in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, it would be adverse to the public interest that the matter should be discussed to-day, when your Lordships have not got that information which the Papers that must be in a short time presented to your Lordships will give, and also when Her Majesty's Government, through a sense of duty, would be prevented from taking a full part in the debate. My noble Friend has been good enough to answer me that it is already announced that this House will adjourn on the 13th of this month and will not meet again till the end of the month; and he remarked that a fortnight after the latter time has been appointed for the meeting of the Arbitrators at Geneva. Your Lordships will remember that on Thursday a noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Cairns) put a Question to me as to what day I could fix for laying the Papers on the Table, or making a statement. He asked that Question without Notice—under the circumstances it would have been impossible for him to give Notice—I answered—what indeed was obvious—that in negotiations of this sort it was impossible to specify the exact day on which we should be prepared to make an announcement 269 to Parliament. My Lords, I believe your Lordships did not think that was an unreasonable answer. On the other hand, I do feel that it was not a mere phrase when I thanked your Lordships for the forbearance you have shown. But there are limits to that reticence which we think it our public duty to observe, and which we think, so far, has been useful to the public service—and we doubt whether it would be fair to ask Parliament to separate for any long time at this moment, while leaving you entirely in the dark with regard to the state of affairs. I have therefore to state to your Lordships that I shall be prepared before Parliament separates either to present Papers or to make a statement as to the position and prospects of the negotiations now going on. I can hardly think that under those circumstances my noble Friend will refuse to listen to my appeal—for I am confident that noble Lords on both sides of the House would rather pique themselves on their fairness to the Government, and would be disposed to give it their best assistance when it has to deal with grave international questions.
§ EARL RUSSELLMy Lords, I gave Notice of my Motion for the 22nd of April. I then put off the Motion to that day week—the 29th. On the latter day, when I found that the despatch had only just arrived, I further postponed my Motion till this day. In the interval before this day arrived I found my noble Friend (Earl Granville) had given Notice that on the 13th—which is just one week from this time—he would propose the Adjournment of the House for more than a fortnight. Now he tells us that on the 13th he will either make a statement or lay the Papers on the Table of the House. My Lords, I am sorry to say that I do not think such an announcement meets what is due to Parliament. It appears to me that if the Papers were laid on the Table, or any arrangement were come to that they should be produced on the 13th, it would be quite impossible that the House, adjourning on the same day for more than a fortnight, could pronounce any opinion on the arrangement come to or on the nature of the Papers produced. It might happen that your Lordships would agree with the arrangement made, or that you might think it a compromise which did not appear to be consistent with the 270 honour and the interests of this country. If my noble Friend would say that he will not propose the Adjournment till some later day than the 13th, I imagine the House would approve the arrangement proposed. This is a very important question, and one on which the Government have expressed a very decided opinion. If they were now to give way and make an unworthy compromise such a course would occasion great anxiety and, I may say, would excite great indignation in the country. Unless, therefore, my noble Friend proposes to alter the day for the Adjournment, I shall feel it my duty to proceed with my Motion.
§ EARL GRANVILLEIn any difficulty I have ever experienced in the course of my long connection with your Lordships' House, I believe I may say that I never have been guilty of anything that could be thought unfair; and I have no hesitation in saying that if it is the generally expressed wish of the House that after any declaration which I hope to make, or after laying the Papers on the Table, we should not adjourn for a few days later than was suggested, I, for one, as a matter of convenience to your Lordships, should not be disposed to throw any obstacle in the way.
EARL GREYBefore my noble Friend's Motion is postponed, I hope my noble Friend the Foreign Secretary will give some assurance that in the meantime no course will be adopted by the Government which will pledge the country to any mode of proceeding inconsistent with the course sketched out in the Motion of my noble Friend (Earl Russell).
§ LORD REDESDALEI think it would be a great convenience if your Lordships were to come to a decision as to whether the discussion on this subject should be taken before the holidays or after. You might say that you would not adjourn before Friday week, in order that the debate might be held on Thursday week. I cannot help referring to the Notice which I have given on the subject of these Claims, and to which I called the attention of the Government last year, and also since the commencement of the present Session. If the question which I raised were brought into the Arbitration, it would precede the consideration of any question of damages whatever. 271 It is one as to the right of the American Government to demand damages for acts committed by or on behalf of the South during the war now that the North and South have united. I have abstained from any interference in the hope that something would be done to render it unnecessary; but I think this negotiation is now drifting into a hopeless state, and I beg to say that I have not relinquished my intention of bringing the question again before your Lordships.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYMay I ask the noble Earl (Earl Granville) whether he can undertake, for himself and his Colleagues, that the Papers shall be delivered on Monday next? There is now a proposition that we should not adjourn till Friday week; and if the Papers were produced on Monday, so as to be distributed on Tuesday morning, we should still have time to consider, and, if necessary, to discuss them before the holidays. That is an arrangement which I think everyone would feel to be satisfactory. A shorter interval than that would not be convenient. It is certainly desirable to discuss the question with the Papers rather than without them. At the same time, it is clear that if we only had them 24 hours before the Adjournment that would be useless for the particular purpose we have in view.
§ EARL GRANVILLEI will either present the Papers or make a full statement of the intentions of Her Majesty's Government, so that the House may be in full possession of the state of things before it is called upon to express any opinion.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYWhat we desire is, not only to be in possession of the Papers, but to have time to discuss them before we separate for the holidays. I hope my noble Friend will assure the House that he will not only present the Papers on Monday, but that they will be in such a state as to be ready for distribution on Tuesday morning.
§ EARL GRANVILLEAt the earliest moment I will either submit the Papers or make a statement as to the proceedings of Her Majesty's Government. I beg your Lordships not to suppose that I have the slightest wish to preclude the House from discussing the question should it think fit to do so.
§ LORD CAIRNSThere is still some difficulty, notwithstanding that the noble 272 Earl has replied to more than one Question. When the noble Earl first addressed your Lordships I understood him, while adverting to the circumstance that the House was to adjourn on Monday, to undertake that he would either lay the Papers on the Table or make a full statement with respect to the negotiations before we separate. Now, if it is proposed that the question of the Adjournment of the House should be kept open, and that the House, if necessary, should sit until Thursday or Friday in next week, I ask him whether he will adhere to his original promise and either make his statement or put us in possession of the Papers on Monday. If he does that, then I think there will be ample time to propose any Resolution that may be necessary.
§ EARL GRANVILLEI have to apologize to the House if I did not make myself understood. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that the answer which the noble and learned Lord assumes to be my answer is the correct one; but I wish your Lordships to understand that I do not propose to postpone the Adjournment unless it should be the general wish of your Lordships.
§ EARL RUSSELLAs I understand, my noble Friend (Earl Granville) is prepared to say that before the House is adjourned he will either produce the Papers or make a statement as to the negotiations; and that if your Lordships should be disposed to think that you ought not to separate immediately for so long a period as he proposes, that then he will yield to the wish of the House, and allow a discussion upon the new terms which, we imagine, are to be proposed by the Government. If that is the understanding, I think I should be taking too much on myself if I were to bring on my Motion to-day, and not allow my noble Friend the short time he asks for in order to make a statement which may be an announcement of the termination of this unfortunate difficulty. However, it is always to be recollected that my noble Friend, on the 12th of June last year, declared to this House solemnly and decidedly that the whole of these Indirect Claims were swept away, and that they no longer formed part of the new agreement, although they might have been admissible under a previous one. It should also be recollected 273 that my noble Friend was one of the Ministers who advised Her Majesty in a document of the gravest form—in her Speech to Parliament at the opening of the present Session—to declare that Claims were put into the American Case which we understood not to be part of the Treaty. If my noble Friend will say that he adheres to those words—if he will abide by the assertion that the Treaty of last year put an end to the Indirect Claims—and if he will say that, adhering to those declarations, the Government will make no engagement inconsistent with them, I shall be prepared to postpone my Motion.
§ EARL GRANVILLEI have answered a good many Questions to-night; but in reply to my noble Friend, I may say that I am not aware that there is anything in the statement he has just made to which I object. I am perfectly ignorant myself of any intention of departing from any declaration I have made either last year or this on the subject of the Washington Treaty. The only thing I wish to guard myself against is the idea that I shall produce anything new at the end of this week or the beginning of next.
§ EARL RUSSELLI only wish, with your Lordships' leave, to refresh my noble Friend's memory as to what he said on the 12th of June last year. These were his words on that occasion—
These were pretensions which might have been carried out under the former arbitration; but they entirely disappear under the limited reference—which includes merely complaints arising out of the escape of the Alabama."—[3 Hansard, ccvi. 1852.]If my noble Friend adheres to those words, I am content, and am quite ready to postpone my Motion.
§ EARL GRANVILLEI do not wish to seem wanting in the slightest degree in respect to my noble Friend, and therefore, even at the risk of wasting your Lordships' time, I beg to repeat the answer I have already given, that there is nothing I said, either last year or this, which I wish to retract or in any way modify.
§ EARL RUSSELLI will, then, postpone my Motion until this day week, on the understanding that either then or before that time my noble Friend will be prepared to state the exact condition of the negotiations.