Lords Sitting of 18 March 1872

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Committee—Reformatory and Industrial Schools* (25).
HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE BILL AND SUPREME COURT OF APPEAL BILL—LETTERS OF THE JUDGES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD WESTBURYasked the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, Whether he would have any objection to lay on the Table of the House the Correspondence between the noble and learned Lord and the Judges with reference to the Judicature Commission; and also, whether he was prepared to state that evening the course he intended to take with regard to his Bill for establishing a new Court of Appellate Jurisdiction?
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the correspondence to which his noble and learned Friend alluded had been placed before the Committees of the Judicature Commission, and had been made considerable use of by them. He had obtained, as returned by the Commission, four sets of remarks drawn up by learned Judges. The others he had not as yet received. The communication of the Lord Chief Justice was a full and copious one; and there were communications of some length from Judges of Courts of Equity as well as from Judges of Courts of Common Law. He had applied to one of those learned Judges to know whether he had any objection to the production of his remarks. The reply was, that on principle he did not wish them produced, on the ground that the freedom which should and which otherwise would exist in such matters would be interfered with if such communications should afterwards be produced and laid upon the Table of either House, He must say that to

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  some extent he shared the objection of the learned Judge. He understood from his noble and learned Friend that the Lord Chief Justice had no objection to the production of his opinions, and if that were so, there would be no difficulty in laying them on the Table. If his noble and learned Friend desired it, he would apply to the other Judges to know whether they had any objection to a similar course being adopted in the case of their opinions. On Thursday next he would make a statement on the subject of the Bill for the establishment of a new Court of Appellate Jurisdiction.
  And afterwards Copy of Observations of the Lord Chief Justice of England, the Master of the Rolls, and Mr. Justice Lush, on these Bills ordered to be laid before the House. (No. 57.)

TREATY OF WASHINGTON—THE UNITED STATES' ANSWER.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My Lords, I wish to put a Question to my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in accordance with an intimation I have given him by writing; and perhaps he will answer it this evening; but if he thinks that inconvenient, I will ask it again to-morrow. I wish to know, When Her Majesty's Government intend to lay on the Table the despatch on the subject of the Alabama claims, which is said to have arrived from America within the last few days; and also whether my noble Friend will inform the House what state the negotiations are now in with regard to that question? I need not tell the noble Earl how much anxiety—I will not say apprehension—exists in this country in reference to the answer of the Government of the United States, and also as regards the policy of Her Majesty's Government in reference to the question.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I will answer the Question of my noble Friend now, as my answer is not likely to load to any discussion. It is true that a despatch from the United States arrived in this country last Thursday. While in this House on the evening of that day, I was informed that the American Minister was waiting for me at the Foreign Office. I went there, and his Excellency read to me and presented me with a copy of the despatch which he had received from Mr. Fish. The
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Government of the United States decline to adopt the view of Her Majesty's Government; but it appears to us that the despatch requires, and seems to invite, an answer from Her Majesty's Government. Under these circumstances, it is impossible for me to state the exact time at which we can produce the correspondence or make a communication as to the state of the negotiations. My noble Friend has referred to the anxiety which he and others feel on the subject of these negotiations. I quite appreciate what my noble Friend has said on that point. The anxiety is one in which I assure him Her Majesty's Government fully share. They are desirous of maintaining the Treaty; but, at the same time, they are entirely aware of the great responsibility which rests on them of upholding the interests and the dignity of this country.

ARMY RE-ORGANIZATION—THE BRIGADE OF GUARDS.—QUESTION.
LORD COLVILLE OF CULROSSrose to bring under the attention of their Lordships a subject of some importance to a number of young gentlemen in the regiments of Guards, and to ask a Question. Unless he had received his information from a reliable source, he should not have ventured to put on the Notice Paper a Question which imputed an act of gross injustice towards a number of young officers. He spoke, however, with some knowledge of the matter, happening to have a son and a brother-in-law among the number. The facts were these. In the month of October last about 20 young gentlemen were appointed to vacancies which then existed in the Brigade of Guards. The newly-appointed officers joined immediately, and got through their drill, and for the last three months they had been performing the duties of their rank, both regimental and brigade. They had mounted guard and sat on courts martial, and within the last ten days had been presented to Her Majesty by the Colonels of their respective regiments as commissioned officers gazetted to their respective ranks. Recently, however, they had been informed that their commissions were to be taken from them, and that they were to go to Sandhurst for a year with the probationary commission of sub-lieutenant. This was in pursuance of Mr. Cardwell's

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new scheme; and no doubt he should be told that those young gentlemen had accepted their commissions as ensigns and lieutenants on a certain condition, because in the letter from the Horse Guards containing the offer of the commission there was this passage—
"I am also directed to explain that, in the event of your accepting the commission now offered, you must clearly understand that you will enter the Army subject to any changes or alterations which may hereafter be made in the regulations of the service with respect to pay or otherwise, and that under no circumstances will this or any future commissions which may be granted to you, at any time be permitted to acquire a pecuniary value."
The Secretary for War, Mr. Cardwell, was reported to have used these words, when speaking in the House of Commons on the 22nd of February last—
"With regard to the Foot Guards, all privileges are to be abolished as far as those are concerned who enter after the 26th of August, 1871, excepting that the brevet rank of colonel will be given to the commanding officer of the battalion, in consequence of his being in immediate attendance upon the Queen. But after that date which I have mentioned those who enter the Guards will pass through Sandhurst, and pass the various stages in precisely the same way as those who enter other portions of the service."—[See 3 Hansard, ccix. 890.]
If, as appeared to be the intention, the officers who were gazetted on the 31st of October last were to have the rule laid down by Mr. Cardwell applied to their case, their commissions would be taken from them, and after having gone through their drill, and mounted guard, and served on courts martial, they would be sent back to school at Sandhurst. Nothing could be more explicit than Mr. Cardwell's statement; but he must ask their Lordships to observe the dates. These young officers were appointed to their commissions in October, 1871, but it was not until four months after that, that Mr. Cardwell conveyed to the House of Commons and the Army information of the change. Why had not those young gentleman had this information before the 22nd of February? He thought it would have been only candid in Mr. Cardwell to have given it to them in October last, when they were about to be gazetted, rather than have inflicted such humiliation on these youths five months after they had been in the enjoyment of their rank. Their Lordships would remark that the circular in which the offer of their commissions
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was contained did not mention any condition as to rank. It did not explain to them that the commissions which were being offered to them would be, or even that that they might be, taken away again. It appeared to him that it was not very good treatment of those officers to tell them, after they had been for nearly five months enjoying their commissions, that they had been all that time living in a fools' paradise, and that those commissions were not worth the parchment on which they were written. Not only had these young gentlemen been humiliated by these proceedings, but they had been degraded. Not only were they reduced to sub-lieutenants, but the lace and other ornaments would be taken off their uniforms. The effect of all this would be to degrade these young gentlemen in the eyes of their men. They would be looked upon by the men as they looked upon a sergeant or a corporal, when his stripes were taken off for misconduct. These were days of political surprises. The Prime Minister had been told by one of his supporters that he occupied his leisure time in driving coaches and six through Acts of Parliament—to use a hunting expression, Mr. Gladstone when he meant business, found no fence too big for him; but that was no reason that Mr. Cardwell should try to follow him. Mr. Cardwell was supposed to be the last man in the world who would wish to do injustice; but the fact was—he was in a difficulty, and to get out of it he had made a mistake which he did not like to acknowledge. He could, however, easily retrace his steps. The Royal Warrant for governing the appointment of officers of the Guards was not out yet, but he believed it would be in a short time, and that was his reason for bringing this subject before their Lordships. Mr. Cardwell could let these 20 young officers pass, and make the Warrant apply to the new appointments made in the Guards. He begged to ask, Whether certain officers who were gazetted as ensigns and lieutenants in the Brigade of Guards, on the 31st of October, 1871, who had performed the duties attached to that rank since that date, and had been presented to Her Majesty as commissioned officers (ensigns and lieutenants in the Guards) by the colonels of their respective regiments, were to be deprived

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of their commissions, and reduced to the rank of sub-lieutenant?
THE MAEQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he had been requested by his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War to state, in answer to his noble Friend's Question, what was the position in which these young officers stood in the opinion of the War Office. They received their commissions in October last; but before they were gazetted they received a notification that, if they accepted their commissions as ensigns and lieutenants in the Brigade of Guards, they would do so subject to any changes or alterations which might thereafter be made in the regulations of the service. His noble Friend admitted that they did receive such a notification, and that they had signed the document subject to it; but he complained that they were not informed in definite terms of the way in which they would be affected by those changes. It would have been impossible to inform them what the changes would be, because, though changes were at that time contemplated, the scheme for the re-organization of the Army was not completed. Now, under the Royal Warrant, the officers of the Guards would be placed on the same footing as officers of other regiments; and, accordingly, the commissions of those young gentlemen would be probationary commissions, only they would bear the title of sub-lieutenants and lieutenants in the Guards. Having signed the documents containing the conditions on which they accepted their commissions, they could not now complain. He was further requested by his right hon. Friend to state that these young gentlemen would, however, still retain their title of lieutenant, and that would get rid of what the noble Lord had said about the uniform.
THE EARL OF STAIRsaid, he most emphatically protested against the cruel injustice which these young gentlemen were about to receive at the hands of the War Office. The letter which had been referred to said that the gentlemen receiving commissions would enter the service subject to any change thereafter to be made in the regulations of the service as to pay or otherwise; so that there was a special reference to pay, and no reference whatever to change in rank. If it were intended to deprive these officers of their rank, it surely should have been mentioned in that letter; and if it
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had not been intended, then he must protest against any retrospective action in this matter. Without any reason assigned, the Government proposed to take away their commissions from these young men—as it were, to send them back to school, and to degrade them in the eyes of the men whom they had been commanding for several months. This was to be done without any complaint of any kind having been made against them. They had heard of a very able statement which had been made in "another place" as to the re-organization of the Army; but he asked the Government whether they were going to inaugurate this great scheme of Army reform with a crying injustice? He trusted that the Government would reconsider the matter, and would not, at the very time of their entering upon life, disgust these young men with the service.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he endorsed everything that had been stated by his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Stair). Unless the Government re-considered this matter, they would be guilty of one of the grossest pieces of injustice to these young men, who were just entering upon life, that they could possibly inflict, even though they should remain in office for a long series of years. These young officers accepted their commissions, and, no doubt, they received a copy of the letter that had been referred to; but whose fault was it that they had boon gazetted as on signs and lieutenants? It certainly was not the fault of the officers themselves; it was the fault of those who were in authority. The official document, the monthly Army List, showed that upon the 31st October, 1871, there were 11 officers gazetted in the Grenadier Guards, five in the Cold-streams, and four in the Fusiliers; at the time they were appointed their appointments were necessary. What had these officers since done? They had done no wrong in any way. They had had the honour of performing guard duty at the Palace, and they had also had the honour—which was most highly valued—of carrying the colours of their regiments. The value attached by officers to things like these was not understood by persons who were not connected with the Army. All these young officers had also been presented to their Sovereign as ensigns and lieutenants; and by what authority

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could they now deprive them of the rant which the Sovereign herself had recognized as the rank which she had given them. He defied anyone to show that this proceeding was necessary to the scheme of Army organization. As to the letter that had been referred to, he did not think it was a letter that ought not to have been sent to young men previous to their getting their commissions. A young man of 18, after waiting some time perhaps, had this letter sent from head-quarters, telling him that a commission was at his disposal if he was agreeable to take it; and then the letter went on to say—
"I am desired to explain, that in the event of your accepting the commission now offered, you must clearly understand that you will enter the Army subject to any changes or alterations which may be hereafter made in the regulations of the service with respect to pay or otherwise."
Now, what did "otherwise" mean? It could not include everything. Suppose it had been necessary that in carrying out the scheme of Army reform, these young officers should enter the ranks and carry a fire-lock, according to the interpretation that now seemed to be put upon the "otherwise" they would have had to do that. The young officer was then told that his commission would not acquire any pecuniary value, and it continued—"You are specially required to answer the last paragraph of this letter." Why, this was the last paragraph, and answered itself. He ventured to think that this letter was a badly written and obscure letter, and that it was not a letter that ought to be put into the hands of a young man who was about to enter the Army. He much doubted even if his noble and learned Friend behind him (Lord Cairns) could easily put a clear and plain meaning upon it. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Ripon) had said that this was simply carrying out the arrangements of last year; but, if so, the Government should have thought of that, and announced it before they gave the commissions. His own opinion was that the Government had not, when the commissions were given, made up their minds as to what they would do. He regretted to find that the privileges of the Guards were about to be done away with, and this fact was stated in rather an off-hand manner by the Secretary of State. He said, in his speech—
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"With regard to the Foot Guards, all their privileges are abolished after the 26th August, 1871, except the brevet rank of colonel."
And this was the position of the officers of the Guards, that the first intimation they had of what was about to take place was the speech of the right hon. Gentleman saying that their privileges were abolished. Now, he would wish their Lordships to consider what these privileges were.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the Government had received no Notice, either from the noble Lord (Lord Colville), or from the noble Duke, that they intended to raise a discussion on the subject.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he believed he was in Order. It appeared from the statement of the Secretary of State for War that the privileges of the Guards were to be abolished: he and other noble Lords wanted to know the reason. But, as the subject was so disagreeable to the Government that they could not discuss it without Notice—without having it formally put upon the Paper—of course he must take another opportunity of calling attention to it.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the discussion had taken a somewhat irregular character; and certainly the noble Duke had no right to refer to the topic to which he was about to advert, without giving Notice of his intention to do so. The noble Duke also had no right to say that they objected to the discussion because the subject was disagreeable to them. He thought that when it was intended to enter on a departmental question, it was desirable that Notice should be given, in order that one of the Members of the Government should be prepared to go into it; and certainly that was particularly desirable when it was proposed to discuss a military question in a House containing so many noble Lords of the military profession.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, he desired to make a few remarks on the subject brought under their Lordships' notice by his noble Friend who had commenced the discussion. He was anxious simply that the House should thoroughly understand the case of those young officers. In the first place, he hoped the House would appreciate the great difficulties under which all large organic changes were introduced. Their Lordships must remember that when

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great changes were being made, and the large interests of communities of men or professions were to be dealt with, it was all but impossible that some portion or other of such community or profession should not feel itself aggrieved. That was exactly the case of those young officers. He felt great interest in those gentlemen, who had been for the most part appointed to their commissions by himself, and in consequence of his representations to the Secretary of State for War. It happened that no commissions had been filled up for a considerable time, and consequently there followed so many vacancies in the Brigade of Guards that it was impossible to do the duty of the regiments any longer without filling them up. In his own regiment alone there were ten vacancies. He represented the state of things to the Secretary for War, who told him that he had no wish to throw any difficulty in the way of necessary appointments; but, as the Army organization then proposed would probably entail great changes, it was essential to make the new appointments subject to such alterations as might be introduced. It was in consequence of this that the letter which had been referred to was written. He agreed with his noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond) that the letter was a vague one; but it was impossible to make it anything else. It must have been vague, because it was intended to provide for changes then in contemplation, but not definitively settled. He was himself responsible for the letter. But if it was a bad letter, it at least conveyed an intimation that great changes were about to be made, though it now appeared that the changes actually made were greater than had been anticipated by the candidates. He thought it would be most undesirable to contemplate an alteration in the rank of these young officers. They had received their appointments, and therefore it was proposed to continue the rank of lieutenant to those who had been so appointed; the only difference would be that instead of ensigns and lieutenants, they would be sub-lieutenants and lieutenants. Of course, they would be allowed to retain the lace and other ornaments on their uniform; and here he might state that the reason for having the uniform of sub-lieutenants less rich than that of other officers was, that as their position was only probationary it
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was thought desirable that they should not have to pay for expensive uniform when they might not remain in the service to wear it. Those young gentlemen would be permitted to go to Court as heretofore, and as sub-lieutenants and lieutenants they would have the same duties to perform as at present. As the grade of sub-lieutenant had been adopted as the first grade for the Army, it would have been impossible to deal with the rest of the Army without dealing with the Guards. There was no intention to degrade these officers. As an officer commanding a regiment of Guards, he would be the last to wish to see the Guards put at any disadvantage. There was no intention to do this; and in the case of the young gentlemen whose case was now before their Lordships, the military authorities would give all possible facilities for making the change as little disagreeable as possible.
LORD CAIRNSsaid, he could not but think that this matter required more explanation, or it would be thought that the Government were doing considerable injustice to a number of young men. He quite concurred with the illustrious Duke that they could not make great changes in the Army without occasioning inconvenience somewhere; but he held that the Government should have given clear and distinct notice to those whom they had recently appointed as to the amount of change to which they were to be subject. No doubt the position of the young men depended upon the letter to which reference had been made, and the noble Marquess said he relied upon the letter as being a justification of the Government. He (Lord Cairns) did not think that the letter warranted what had been done. He did not deny that each sentence of the letter was grammatically clear, but the document, as a whole, did not point out what was going to be done. The letter said that the receiver of it had got a commission as ensign, and it continued—
"I have to explain that, in the event of your accepting the commission now offered, you must clearly understand that you will enter the Army subject to any changes or alterations that may hereafter be made in the regulations of the service with respect to pay or otherwise."
Anybody would understand this to mean that the person would get a commission, but that the pay, the promotion, and

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the duty might be altered; but would anybody understand that the authorities were to give a commission with one hand and take it away with the other? However, the illustrious Duke said that these young gentlemen were to have the ranks of lieutenant and sub-lieutenant. Were they to have commissions as lieutenants and sub-lieutenants, just as they had commissions as ensigns and lieutenants?—because, if that were so, he thought they had not much, if anything, to complain of. If, on the other hand, they were only to have the rank of lieutenant, with a probationary commission of sub-lieutenant, which was to come to an end, their position was a very different one, and he thought it was an unfortunate commencement in Army reorganization to inflict a hardship on so limited a number of young officers.
LORD ABINGER, as a commanding officer of the Guards, said, that when these gentlemen were gazetted, ensigns and lieutenants were wanted; and the gentlemen in question entered their regiments under the great advantage of having been practically engaged in learning their duties before they received their commissions? Why send them now to Sandhurst, when they had learnt their business, and their regiments required their services? They ought to receive their commissions at once.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYremarked that the reputation of Sandhurst originally was not of the very best, and he deprecated the withdrawing of young officers from older officers to send them back to school. He hoped Government would think the matter over—whether they were going to give these young men commissions as sub-lieutenants and lieutenants, or Whether they were to be merely probationers.
LORD DENMANsaid, if these young men were treated with generosity, he did not think the service would suffer, while such treatment would be received with gratitude by all.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHhoped the noble Marquess would give their Lordships an answer to the question, whether these young gentlemen were in possession of a commission, or whether they were to be sent to Sandhurst with a commission of a probationary character?
THE MARQUESS OF RIPONreplied, that the commission would be of a pro-
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bationary character, and, accordingly, that the holders of it would have to go to Sandhurst.
LORD CAIRNSsaid, it seemed to him that the commission was merely honorary.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPONcould not answer as to the manner in which their commissions would be made out. They would have the rank of lieutenant.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsuggested that the subject should be brought under the notice of Mr. Cardwell.
House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.