Lords Sitting of 5 March 1872

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Poor Law Loans* (38).
Second Reading—Irish Church Act Amendment (27); Public Parks (Ireland)* (30).

IRISH CHURCH ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Earl of Dufferin.)
IRISH CHURCH ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 27). SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF DUFFERIN, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that by the Irish Church Act a Commission, entitled the Irish Church Temporalities Commission, was constituted for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of the Act so far as its property was concerned, and of examining and determining various claims that might be preferred against the Fund of the Irish Church. The Commission was to consist of three Members, who were named in the Act—namely, Viscount Monck, the right hon. Justice Lawson, and George Alexander Hamilton, Esq. Last year Mr. Hamilton died, and experience led Her Majesty's Government to believe that the objects of the Act would in all probability be better accomplished by not appointing a successor to that Commissioner. It was proposed, therefore, by the Bill now before their Lordships, that the Commission should in future be composed of two Commissioners only; but that whereas the original Act empowered any person aggrieved to require his case to be re-heard by the three Commissioners, the future Court of Appeal should consist of the two continued Commissioners, and any Member of the Irish Privy Council who may hold or

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  may have held any judicial office, to be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant. He believed the proposed arrangement had the approval of those most interested in the duties discharged by the Commission. He could not sit down without availing himself of the present opportunity of endorsing the eulogium passed upon the late Mr. Hamilton by the Master of the Rolls on a recent occasion, with so much eloquence and truth. There were few men by whose death Ireland would sustain a greater loss than she had sustained by that of Mr. Hamilton. He was a loss not only to Ireland, but to the country at large. His services, while he filled the office of Permanent Secretary to the Treasury, were such that testimony had been borne to thorn both by those who knew him as a colleague and those outside the Government who had any business at the Treasury. He was equally successful as a Commissioner of the Irish Church. When the Irish Church Bill was before Parliament Mr. Gladstone offered one of the Commissionerships to Mr. Hamilton, who told the First Minister that he was altogether opposed to his legislation in reference to the Irish Church, out of which the necessity for an Irish Church Commission was to arise. Subsequently, Mr. Gladstone told the House of Commons he could not give stronger proof of his anxiety that the business of the Commission should be conscientiously discharged than was afforded by the appointment of Mr. Hamilton. The confidence reposed in Mr. Hamilton had been amply justified by the manner in which he had discharged his duties.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Dufferin.)
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, he entirely agreed with every word the noble Earl (the Earl of Dufferin) had said in reference to the late Mr. Hamilton. When the noble Earl answered a Question which he put to him on this subject about a month ago, the noble Earl conveyed to his mind the impression that the only thing contemplated was simply the abolition of the office of one of the Commissioners, and the vesting of the functions of the whole Commission in the other two. He was aware that such an arrangement would be so unsatisfactory to those interested in the arrangements of the Irish Church that
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  he gave Notice of his intention to oppose the Bill. Since then he had received a number of communications, which showed him that he had not misinterpreted the feelings of that numerous body. Only last evening he presented a Petition from the Incorporated Society of the Irish Attorneys and Solicitors, complaining of the grievance suffered by themselves and their clients in consequence of the vacancy in the Commission; their complaints related not only to the want of a full Court of Appeal, but also to the delay in the business of the Office. As, however, provision was to be made in the Bill for a more satisfactory appellate tribunal, and as he understood this arrangement was accepted by the Irish Church Body, he would offer no formal opposition to the Bill. In taking this course, he was yielding to their opinion rather than acting on his own. For himself, he did not think good reason had been shown for changing a material condition of an Act, on the careful preparation of which it had been stated that so much time had been spent that other important measures were postponed. He had not a word to say against the manner in which the existing Commissioners discharged their duty, which was the complicated and difficult office of dealing with a great variety of personal claims; but the business of the Commission was said to be in arrear, and more power—either more Commissioners or more clerks—was certainly required. This being so, he thought that the arrangement for calling in the occasional assistance of a Member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council on appeals ought to be supplementary to, and not a substitute for, the system of having three Commissioners, as provided in the existing Act. As the Irish Church Act was under consideration, he ventured to suggest, in reference to the redemption of tithe rent-charge, that the terms laid down in the 32nd clause were too high, and the conditions of redemption so complicated, that proprietors were rather repelled from than encouraged to deal with the subject. There were also some cases of hardship with which the Commissioners found difficulty—such, in particular, as the restoration of the Cathedral at Cork, which had been in progress for several years; but the Chapter Economy Fund,

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  which had been allotted for the expenses, had passed into other hands, and the result was liability and embarrassment to individuals who could ill afford to bear it. There was no desire on the part of those responsible for the administration of the Irish Church Act that it should press unduly anywhere—quite the contrary; therefore, he trusted that if the Commissioners found their powers insufficient, the Government would not hesitate to assist them by amending the law, if necessary.
  VISCOUNT MONCKsaid, that being one of the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners, he desired to explain to their Lordships what their duties had been, and what they had done. The Irish Church Act empowered the clergy and other annuitants paid out of Church property to commute their incomes from the 1st January 1871. Accordingly, when the property of the Irish Church came into the hands of the Commissioners, it became their first duty to conduct these commutations. That duty occupied the Commissioners during the first year of their existence, and for four or five months afterwards. When this was completed, all the property of the Irish Church became vested in Trustees. The Commissioners were called upon to commute annuities and also life interests in glebes and Church lands. The commutation of annuities was a comparatively easy task—the commutation of life interests in Church lands was very different, because it involved a very large amount of inquiry. He did not think, however, that the progress made by the Commissioners had been slow, or that the arrears were at all considerable. Since the Commissioners came into office there had been 5,231 applications for commutations, of which 3,483 had been finally disposed of. Considering that until the 1st of January, 1871, they could not commute a single annuity except the annuities of the Presbyterian clergymen, he did not think that was bad work.
  THE EARL OF COURTOWN, as a member of the Representative Body of the Irish Church, must say he could not concur in all that had been said by the noble Earl (the Earl of Longford); but there was a serious amount of work to be transacted by the Commissioners, and he thought that, perhaps, employment might be found for a greater number of clerks.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  NEW PUBLIC OFFICES.—QUESTIONS.
  LORD REDESDALEasked Her Majesty's Government, When the public offices now building in Downing Street are to be completed for occupation: When the houses between them and Parliament Street are to be pulled down: Whether it is intended to widen the rest of Parliament Street in like manner, and, if so, when; and whether other public offices are to be erected on that frontage? The noble Lord said, that obviously a great improvement might be effected by the pulling down of the houses referred to in his second Question:—besides, as long as they stood they would be a source of danger from fire to the new Public Offices. To widen the rest of Parliament Street down to George Street would be a very great convenience to the public; but it would require the purchase of the whole block of buildings between Parliament Street and King Street. If it were intended to erect other public buildings on that frontage, it was very desirable, in an economical point of view, that the Government should purchase the property as soon as possible. Many of the houses were now old; but the property in that neighbourhood was sure to become more expensive. He hoped, therefore, the answer would not be that nothing had been done, or was about to be done, on this subject.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEreplied that the Public Offices in Downing Street would probably be completed and ready for occupation about the spring of the year. The houses between them and Parliament Street would not, for obvious reasons, be pulled down until the Offices were nearly completed. Three of those houses were in occupation as Public Offices, and were thus serving a valuable purpose; and the remaining houses, which had been for some time in the hands of the Crown, were paying rent, which need not be forfeited until a necessity for relinquishing it arose. And further, the row of houses formed an effectual screen behind which the noisy and unsightly building operations were concealed—so that the public gained an advantage by its retention. The Go-

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  vernment had no intention at present of widening the rest of Parliament Street. The noble Lord's Question seemed to point to a plan at one time under the consideration of the Government, which contemplated the erection of all the Public Offices within a block bounded by Downing Street, Parliament Street, King Street, and George Street. That scheme was abandoned, mainly owing to the necessity for placing the new War Office in close proximity with the Horse Guards. The present intention was that the new War Office and the new Admiralty should be placed in Whitehall—the War Office to be at a convenient distance from the Horse Guards. That would be a step in the direction of that concentration which the noble Lord advocated. No doubt the projecting portion of building between King Street and Parliament Street was unsightly; but it would be impossible to ask the country to incur great expense in order to acquire the land between King Street and Parliament Street, unless it was absolutely necessary to construct public buildings upon it, or to use it for some other public purpose. If the demolition of the buildings in question was requisite to give larger space for the immense traffic of Parliament Street, the acquisition and demolition of the property would properly be carried out by the Metropolitan Board of Works, and not by a Government Department.
  LORD REDESDALEthought it a great misfortune that the Government had not the courage to ask for money to enable them to acquire the site to which he had referred, for the arrangement would be economical. Buildings more conveniently situated with regard to the Horse Guards could not be found than those now used for the Home Office and the adjoining Offices. Instead of pulling down the Horse Guards or the Admiralty in order to put up something now, it would be better to use the buildings already erected.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.