Lords Sitting of 13 June 1872

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Duke of Bedford, after the death of his uncle; The Earl of Aberdeen, after the death of his brother.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Bank of England (Election of Directors)* (144); Tramways Provisional Orders Confirmation (Nos. 3 and 4)* (145, 146); Tramways (Ireland) Provisional Order Confirmation* (147); Elementary Education (Provisional Order Confirmation)* (148); Trusts of Benefices and Churches* (151).
Second Reading—Baptismal Fees (128); Charitable Trustees Incorporation* (127).
Committee—Epping Forest* (132–150); Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 2)* (122).
Third Reading—Intoxicating Liquor (Licensing) (131); Statute Law Revision* (107); Metropolitan Commons Supplemental* (115); Public Health (Scotland) Supplemental* (121); Cattle Disease (Ireland) Acts Amendment* (125); Charitable Loan Societies (Ireland)* (124), and passed.

EXTRADITION (GERMANY).
  COMMUNIST PRISONERS (FRANCE).

    PAPERS PRESENTED BY COMMAND.
    EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I rise for the purpose of laying on the Table of your Lordships' House two sets of Papers. One consists of a Treaty between Her Majesty and the Emperor of Germany for the mutual surrender of fugitive Criminals. It was signed in London on the 14th of May. The other consists of Papers which are of a somewhat painful character. They are the Correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the French Republic, on the subject of the disembarkation in England of Communist prisoners. I promised my noble Friend the Marquess of Clanricarde, who is not now present, that in presenting the Papers on the subject I would make a statement in reference to the subject. That statement would have involved a recapitulation of facts which have excited an anxious feeling in this country—and this feeling was one of the reasons which induced Her Majesty's Government to make representations to that of France on the subject. A correspondence ensued which has closed with a despatch from M. de Rémusat, the French Minister for Foreign Affairs, which will prevent the necessity of my going into any details. If my noble Friend Earl Stan-

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    hope, who referred to the subject on a former evening, had been present, he would have been ready to vouch for the high character which M. de Rémusat had always held in this country both as a politician and literary man, and the assurance he now gave was only in conformity with his general language towards this country since he had held the seals of the Foreign Department. This is a précis of the communication from the French Minister—
    "M. de Rémusat acknowledges the receipt of Lord Lyons' note, stating that Her Majesty's Government could not consent to the deportation to England of the class of persons in question, whether they are provided or not with the means of subsistence, and gives the assurance that the French Government would not deviate from the precautions which they had taken since their attention was first called to the subject. He adds that the persons thus restored to liberty on the sole condition that they shall not reside in France shall not be subject to any measure tending to inflict their presence on a friendly country—a measure susceptible of being assimilated to transportation; and M. de Rémusat expresses regret if any misunderstanding on the subject has arisen, as the French Government are determined to abstain from all such interference as might induce French exiles to elect Great Britain as their place of abode."
    My Lords, I think this is a happy termination of that difficulty, and that I need say no more on the subject in presenting this Paper
    Correspondence respecting the embarkation of communist prisoners from French Ports to England: And
    Treaty between Her Majesty and the Emperor of Germany for the mutual surrender of fugitive criminals; signed at London 14th May 1872:
    Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BAPTISMAL FEES BILL.—(No. 128.)
  (The Lord Bishop of Winchester.)
  BAPTISMAL FEES BILL.—(No. 128.)

    SECOND READING.
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
    THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTER, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that by the ancient law of the Church it was absolutely illegal to demand any fee for the celebration of any sacrament of the Church, because it was said they ought to be administered freely. In more modern times, however, fees had in some in-
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    stances been demanded for administering the sacrament of baptism, and in other cases for registering it. A consequence was that a large number of children remained unbaptized, because their parents were too poor to pay the demands which were made upon them. Now, these things ought not to be, and this Bill proposed to declare these fees unlawful. The Bill recited that whereas doubts have been entertained whether in certain churches and chapels of the Church of England, under the authority administration of the sacrament of baptism, or for the due registration thereof, and it is desirable to put an end to such doubts; and it declares that henceforth it shall be unlawful for any minister, clerk in Orders, parish clerk, or any other person to demand any fee for the of certain local Acts of Parliament, certain fees may not be demanded for the administration of the sacrament of baptism, or for the registry thereof. He understood that there would be an objection to taking away any vested interest, even in such a matter as this and that in some cases the incumbents of parishes had been endowed by statute with the fees now proposed to be abolished; and therefore, if it should be found expedient, he would add in Committee that this Act should not apply to prevent from taking fees the holder of any office who might at present be entitled to demand them.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Bishop of Winchester.)
    THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, that in Archbishop Tenison's time there was the practice of charging fees for registration in the parish of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, and from thence the custom passed to other adjacent parishes, in one case at least, by virtue of an Act of Parliament. In the present day, however, such fee was never demanded from any poor person. Besides the incumbents, who were not anxious to maintain these fees, there were parish clerks who had vested interests, and it would be a great inconvenience that they should be deprived of them. He, therefore, trusted that if their Lordships accepted the Bill, they would adopt a proviso to protect these interests.
    Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

  INTOXICATING LIQUORS LICENSING BILL—(Nos. 78, 106, 131.)
  (The Earl of Kimberley.)
  INTOXICATING LIQUORS LICENSING BILL—(Nos. 78, 106, 131.)

    THIRD READING. BILL PASSED.
    Bill read 3a (according to Order).
    THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYmoved the following new Clause to follow Clause 45:—
    "Where the justices refuse to renew a license, and an appeal against such refusal is duly made, and such license expires before the appeal is determined, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may, by order, permit the person whose license is refused to carry on his business during the pendency of the appeal upon such conditions as they think just; and, subject to such conditions, any person so permitted may, during the continuance of such order, carry on his business in the same manner as if the renewal of the license had not been refused.
    "Where a license is forfeited on or in pursuance of a conviction for an offence, and an appeal is duly made against such conviction, the Court by whom the conviction was made may, by order, grant a temporary license to be in force during the pendency of the appeal upon such conditions as they think just."
    Motion agreed to; Clause inserted.
    THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY moved to insert as a separate paragraph at end of Clause 48—
    "In a county the justices in quarter sessions assembled, and in a borough the borough justices, shall make rules in pursuance of which any person other than the owner interested in any licensed premises as mortgagee or otherwise shall be entitled on payment of such sum as may be specified in such rules to receive from the clerk to the licensing justices a similar notice to that which an owner of such premises is entitled to receive under this Act."
    THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that before the Bill passed he wished to express his own feeling, and that of his noble Friends who acted with him, that their Lordships were much indebted to the noble Earl who had charge of the measure for the candid manner in which he had dealt with the House while the Bill was under discussion. There had been some points on which considerable difference of opinion existed; but the exceedingly pleasant manner in which the noble Earl had discussed these points had been the means of smoothing down difficulties. He thought it only due to the noble Earl that he should give public expression to his sense of the courteous way in which the Bill had been carried through that House.
    THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he felt very much the kindness of the noble
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    Duke and other noble Lords on the Opposition side. On the other hand, he must say that he and his Colleagues felt that if it had not been for the forbearance of the Opposition, they never could have carried the Bill through their Lordships' House.
    Bill passed; and sent to the Commons.

    BANK OF ENGLAND (ELECTION OF DIRECTORS) BILL [H.L.]
    A Bill to amend the Law relating to the Election of Directors of the Bank of England—Was presented by The Lord REDESDALE; read 1a. (No. 144.)

    TRUSTS OF BENEFICES AND CHURCHES BILL [H.L.]
    A Bill to facilitate the creation of Trusts of the Patronage of Benefices and Churches—Was presented by The Lord Bishop of CARLISLE, read 1a. (No. 151.)
    House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.