Lords Sitting of 5 August 1872

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Attorneys and Solicitors Act (1860) Amendment* (285); Income Tax Collection, Public Departments (No. 2)* (283); Turnpike Acts Continuance, &c.* (282); Pensions Commutation Act (1871) Extension* (284).
Second Reading—Greenwich Hospital (273); Military Forces Localisation (Expenses) (278); Public Health (279); Law Officers (England) Fees (254); Public Works Loan Commissioners (School Boards Loans)* (274); Turnpike Trusts Arrangements* (275); Merchant Shipping and Passenger Acts Amendment* (281).
Committee—Municipal Corporations (Borough Funds)* (264).
Committee—Report—General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Supplemental* (253); Royal Military Canal Act Amendment* (263).

GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL—(No. 273.)
(The Earl of Camperdown.)
GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL—(No. 273.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that its main object was to provide life annuities for masters and seamen in the Mercantile Marine who had contributed 6d. per month out of their wages to the funds of Greenwich Hospital. The persons who had thus contributed down to the year 1834 to those funds had complained that although they had subscribed to the funds of the Hospital, they had received no benefit in return. Those complaints went on until the year 1869, in which year the Admiralty were empowered by Act of Parliament to provide £4,000, which should be spent, as far as it would go, in pensions to seamen who had contributed for five years or more to the Hospital funds. These seamen had, however, since renewed their complaints on the ground that they were old men, and that they would probably die before it came to their turn to receive a pension under the regulations. It was therefore proposed under the present Bill that the Admiralty should have power to purchase pensions for these persons under the regulations laid down by an Order in Council. There were two other provisions in the Bill, one of which was to empower the Admiralty to provide wholly or in part for the education and main-

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  tenance of the daughters of warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men in the Navy and Marines, provided that not more than 200 girls were so educated and maintained, and that the expense should not exceed £20 a-year per head. That provision was in continuation of a somewhat similar one which existed down to the year 1841, for previously to that year there was in connection with Greenwich Hospital a school for 200 of those girls. It was then abolished; but a Royal Commission and a Committee of the other House of Parliament had recommended that in future a sum not exceeding £4,000 a-year should be expended—not in setting up schools under the Admiralty, but in contributing towards the education of 200 girls in female schools in the neigbourhood of London. The other provision of the Bill, which was also recommended by these Bodies, was to provide for the education of the sons and daughters of deceased non-commissioned officers and men who had been educated in the school attached to Greenwich Hospital, but who had dropped out of that school in consequence of the change which had been made in the regulations of the place. The expense, however, was not to exceed £20 a-year per head, or £1,000 in all. This contribution was to be made in lieu of the sum expended on the education of such children in schools which had formerly been held in connection with the Hospital. In conclusion, he begged to move the second reading of the Bill.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

MILITARY FORCES LOCALISATION EXPENSES BILL—(No. 278.)
(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
MILITARY FORCES LOCALISATION EXPENSES BILL—(No. 278.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that its object and provisions must be already so fully within the knowledge of their Lordships that he did not think it necessary to detain the House by any lengthened observations in support of the second reading. The Bill was founded on the Report of General MacDougall's Committee, which
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  sat last year, and which had recommended the obtaining of unity in the forces, an improved method of recruiting, and a simple and efficient machinery whereby the general officer commanding a district could set in motion the troops, by means of the division of the whole kingdom into military districts, each under the command of one officer, and in each of which there would be collected two battalions of Regular troops, two of Militia, and such of the Auxiliary forces as might be found within the limits of the district. Certain modifications which had been subsequently introduced in the scheme, and as it had been alleged that those modifications were an indication on the part of Her Majesty's Government that they were not prepared to act on the Report, he would explain how it was any change had become necessary. Where the boundary of the county and the boundary of the military district were conterminous there was no difficulty; but where two or more counties came within the military district a difficulty had arisen. There had been representations from officers of Militia that any attempt to remove the headquarters of Militia regiments from the county in which they were at present situate to the proposed depôt centre would not be agreeable either to the county or to the force itself. Under these circumstances, the War Department thought it would be pedantic if, in such cases, a removal of the head-quarters were insisted upon. What was proposed was that in composite districts the headquarters of Militia regiments should be retained in their counties; but that in cases where the boundaries of the county and the depôt centre were conterminous, the arrangement proposed in the original scheme should be adhered to. He thought the Department might congratulate itself on the small amount of opposition that had been shown to its selection of depôt centres. In certain instances, there had been memorials asking the War Office to select other places; but in the majority of those cases those memorials had been followed by counter ones praying that the selection already made might be adhered to. The objections to selections were generally based on the danger likely to arise from the alleged immorality of the troops. He thought he was not going too far in saying that this scheme of the Government

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  would have a tendency to decrease rather than increase immorality. It was a part of that scheme to introduce into the Army a system of short service, under which the connection between a soldier and his home would he severed for a comparatively very brief period of time. Under such a system, and considering, moreover, the fact that, even during his service with the Army, he would find himself serving among men recruited from the same locality as himself, and through whom his reputation would survive the period of his enlistment, it was not too much to assume that a soldier would he for the future careful of that reputation, by which his subsequent career might be so seriously affected. With reference to the case of Oxford, which the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) had brought forward with such force on a former occasion, he understood that a wish had been expressed in "another place" by one of the Representatives of the University, that no decision should be come to as to making Oxford a centre, until the authorities of the University had reassembled, in order that their united opinion on the subject might be expressed. He thought it very improbable that any final step in the matter could be taken by the War Department, until the University would have had such an opportunity as its Representative in the other House desired. In conclusion, he had only to point out to their Lordships that whatever might be the merits or demerits of the scheme, an undue expenditure of public money would not be one of the latter. The total expense of carrying it out would be £3,500,000; but this would render unnecessary a certain expenditure of £120,000. It was, perhaps, scarcely fair to take credit for the whole of this saving, because it would still be necessary to pay—lodging money, £40,000; camp equipage, £15,000; and fuel and gas, £12,000—£67,000; the actual saving would be £53,000, besides which the counties would be saved about £20,000. The amount saved by the expenditure of the £3,500,000 would, if capitalized, give £2,250,000. The remaining £1,250,000 did not, however, by any means involve that additional cost to the country, as it would cover an expenditure necessitated by the withdrawal of troops from the colonies—namely, provision for accommodation for
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  9,000 additional men consequent upon the presence of 70 battalions instead of 46 in this country; for owing to the expenditure under this Bill no extra charge would fall upon the country in consequence of this change in the number of troops. He did not think anyone could consider that an extravagant provision for that purpose.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYwas glad to hear that the War Office was willing to listen to his proposal which he made a few weeks ago, that the decision on the question should be delayed until the teaching body of the University would have an opportunity of expressing its united opinion on the subject, before Oxford was selected as a depot centre. He ventured to think that opinion would be such that the Government ought not to select Oxford for the purposes of this Bill. For himself, he had seen nothing to make him change his opinion; on the contrary, since this question was last before their Lordships, he had heard the opinion of a distinguished officer that to have two sets of young men, each under a different authority, mixed up together in one place, was an arrangement which would not be desirable for either. He thought the noble Marquess the Under Secretary for War and his Chief took too rosy a view of the effect of this Bill on the morality of the Army. For himself, he did not believe the morality of the Army to be worse than that of any other class; but he did not think that the congregation of a great number of unmarried soldiers at Oxford, together with the species of population they were likely to attract, would increase the discipline or promote the morality of the undergraduates. This matter, however, now rested with the University, and he could only express his hope that the War Office would not be deaf to any remonstrances which might be addressed to them.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL—(No. 279.)
(The Lord President.)
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL—(No. 279.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that as its details were very generally known, and had been very fully discussed in "another place," he might, on that occasion, confine himself to a brief statement of its provisions. Its great object was the putting an end to separate sanitary authorities in the same community. Whether in towns or in rural districts, it would vest in one single authority the power of carrying out sanitary measures under the existing Acts. It did not increase the sanitary powers under these Acts. Provisions having that object were originally included in the Bill, but owing to the opposition to which they had given rise, the Government were obliged to withdraw them. The Bill would, however, effect the great object of establishing a uniform system of sanitary authority, and providing that there should be only one such authority in each community.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  EARL FORTESCUEcongratulated the Government on their wise and courageous perseverance, and the opposition on their patriotic co-operation in carrying out four great measures—the two Mines Regulation Bills, the Licensing Bill, and the present Bill. He approved of the present measure as far as it went; but it was only a poor instalment of what was required. For without a consolidation of the confused, and even occasionally conflicting provisions of the numerous sanitary statutes now in force, into one clear and intelligible Act, no sanitary legislation could be thoroughly effective. Still, the advantage of having henceforth only one recognized local sanitary authority in every place, and one central authority in the government for all sanitary purposes, would be very great indeed. Their Lordships must not, however, expect too great results from this measure. They must remember that the Public Health Act of 1848, a far more comprehensive measure, was followed by a very small—indeed, up to
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  the present time, hardly appreciable average diminution of sickness and mortality throughout the kingdom. Not that the millions, well spent on works of sewerage and water supply since 1848, had not done much good in many localities; but, for them, the average mortality would have seriously increased instead of remaining about stationary. But their beneficial influence had been largely counteracted by the constantly increasing tendency to overcrowding in the chief seats of industry and commerce, and by the utterly inadequate protection afforded under a defective legislation to the population employed, even in naturally healthy work, from needless and easily preventible injury. There was in the Public Health Act of 1848 one very useful provision, since repealed, to the principle of which he would earnestly call the attention of the Government, with a view to future legislation—namely, that of requiring the sanction of some competent superior authority to the execution of sanitary works, with borrowed money by any local body. The want of such a control had notoriously already led to much wasteful and inefficient expenditure, and would certainly lead to more. He trusted that the Government would consider the propriety of insisting on the interests of the next generation, being thus protected by preventing money from being borrowed, and uselessly spent in evidently erroneous works, perhaps at the desire of only a small and temporary majority in the local body for one year, while the charge for it extended over a series of years to the detriment of those who had had no voice in the matter. They must not deceive themselves. The tendency of this measure as it stood, while apparently the contrary, would be found in the long run really, though indirectly, centralizing; because so many of the smaller urban and rural local bodies, established as the local authorities under it, would be insignificant and inefficient, that more and more duties and responsibilities must inevitably be given to the central authority. He would, therefore, earnestly press upon the attention of the Government the extreme desirableness of establishing some permanent intermediate authorities for the exercise of an habitual intermediate control over local management and expenditure, between the local units of ad-

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  ministration on the one hand—for which, in rural districts, the Poor Law Unions had been wisely selected by the authors of the present Bill—and the central authority on the other hand, whether of Parliament or of the Executive Government in London. For this, County Boards with a representative character, recommended as they had been by the best men of all political parties, would seem eminently fitted, if the largest towns were each made what some of them had long been—a county of a city—and thus withdrawn from the control of the authorities of the particular county to which, though geographically within it, such large urban communities could hardly, in any reasonable sense, be said to belong. Such an intermediate provincial or county control would be useful in various other besides sanitary matters. The Endowed School Commissioners had recommended its adoption in the case of endowed schools. In his (Earl Fortescue's) opinion, it afforded the only effectual safeguard against local mismanagement on the one hand, and enervating centralization on the other. The interest which, for nearly 30 years, he had taken in sanitary reform, and the fact that he had been associated with his lamented Friend (Lord Carlisle) in bringing in the Public Health Act of 1848, must plead his excuse for now troubling their Lordships at such length.
  LORD REDESDALEcomplained that a Bill of such moment should have been brought up at such a late period of the Session.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LAW OFFICERS (ENGLAND) FEES BILL—(No. 254.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
LAW OFFICERS (ENGLAND) FEES BILL—(No. 254.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, it was one to carry into effect an arrangement which had been made for the purpose, in future, of paying the Law Officers of England by a fixed salary instead of by fees. The Bill provided for the payment of the fees now received by them to the public account.
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  It would have partial operation at once, because one of the present Law Officers (the Solicitor General) had taken office since the new arrangement was determined on, and as the accession to office of the present Attorney General was prior to the arrangements, that hon. and learned Gentleman would continue to receive fees. The Bill, therefore, would not apply to him; but the fees hitherto paid to the Solicitor General would be paid into the Treasury, and the hon. and learned Gentleman would be remunerated by a salary, as would be the successors of the present Attorney General.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

ARMY RE-ORGANIZATION—THE SCIENTIFIC CORPS—ROYAL ARTILLERY AND ROYAL ENGINEERS—PROMOTIONS.—EXPLANATION.
LORD STRATHNAIRN, alluding to the discussion which occurred on this subject last week, said: I beg leave, my Lords, to explain my reasons for objecting, as groundless, to a protest which the noble Marquess the Under Secretary for War entered against me in the debate last Thursday on my Motion for Papers. Before going further I should state, my Lords, that I wrote a very courteous letter on the 20th ult. to the noble Marquess, expressing the hope that he would have the goodness to accept, and to convey to Her Majesty's Government, nay regret at not having brought forward my Motion the day before, owing to my having been told, and thought—as I may observe that the impression was universal—that the Kirwee Motion would have lasted much longer than it did. As regards the second postponement, travelling and coming to London in great heat caused an affection of sun to which I have been subject since I had a sunstroke in India, and I was quite unable to come to the House. As regards the absence of His Royal Highness, I thought that he was at Goodwood, and knew nothing of his departure for Germany. But the absence of the Commander-in-Chief was the less material, because, as I stated in my speech last Thursday—a circumstance which the noble Marquess seems

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to have lost sight of—His Royal Highness's opinions as to the Short Service Act without pension, and as to the discontinuance of the Long Service Act without pension, are recorded in debates in your Lordships' House, and are now registered in Hansard; and, with all due deference to the noble Marquess, I must assert my perfect right to discuss in debate such very valuable material as the opinions on military matters expressed by the Commander-in-Chief in Parliament. As regards the supersession question, I am at a loss to imagine how the Under Secretary of State for War can say that nothing would be less one-sided—that is, neutral—than the opinion of His Royal Highness on that matter, when that admirably reported journal, The Times, states the illustrious Duke's preference of retirement to the Government plan in the following terms:—
"There is, no doubt, a considerable difference of opinion as to whether promotion is better obtained by this scheme or by retirement."
His Royal Highness gives this decided opinion in favour of retirement after a careful review of the whole subject; and this opinion having been expressed in Parliament, I have as much right to make use of so able and important a judgment as I had in the case of the discontinuance of the pensions.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEregretted the noble and gallant Lord should imagine that he had been guilty of any discourtesy towards him. The afternoon on which the letter referred to was written he met the noble and gallant Lord in the House and thanked him for having written it. He was, he thought, warranted in saying that he was sorry the noble and gallant Lord had not brought on his Motion before the departure of the Commander-in-Chief; but he had not the slightest idea of conveying the imputation that he desired to bring it on in the absence of His Royal Highness, who would have contributed to the discussion had it been brought on on the day originally proposed. He would only add that His Royal Highness's speech was, although he might himself have preferred the scheme of retirement, by no means condemnatory of the alternative course adopted by the Government.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPONpointed out that the noble and gallant Lord was
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not in Order in quoting from reports of speeches delivered in a former debate.
LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, he was obliged to the noble Marquess for the courteous explanation he had offered him.
House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Four o'clock.