SECOND READING. (Hansard, 1 August 1872)

§ THE EARL OF HARROWBY
, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the necessity of some re-construction of the whole law on the subject had been long felt, for it was admitted that parts of the existing Acts were practically a dead letter. Indeed, the evidence taken during the Inquiry instituted by the Select Committee of the House of Commons showed that it had ceased to be customary to comply with the existing Acts; and the present Bill was entirely founded on the recommendations of the Report of that Committee. He, therefore, anticipated no opposition to the Bill at that stage.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
said, he had been requested by a committee of pawnbrokers to support this Bill. The proposed increase in the rate of interest would be partly compensated for by a lower charge being exacted for the tickets. The Bill, however, contained a Proviso enacting that a halfpenny should be paid where a farthing was due, and a penny in lieu of three farthings, as this appeared to be done with the intention of getting rid of farthings by a side wind, he should give Notice of an Amendment to omit the Proviso.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
said, he could not help calling the attention of the noble Lord who had moved the second reading, and also that of the Government, to the practice of passing through these Bills at the very end of the Session, when there was no time to fully consider them. If a Bill came up to their Lordships prepared under the eyes of the Government, it would be different; but that Bill had been prepared by a private Member, and he did not believe there was any responsibility attaching to it. Not only that, but it repealed a number of existing statutes, for on looking into it he found that the Schedule began by reciting the statute of the reign of James I., which enabled persons who had their property stolen to recover it from the pawnbroker, and 219 then it went on to deal with an Act of George IV. Such a measure should have been examined by those of their Lordships who were learned in the law. He did not pretend to say what this Bill did or did not contain, but one thing which characterized this anomalous legislation was the manner in which it interfered with the right of free trade between the pawnbroker and those who went to him. He, however, had never heard of anybody standing up for the rights of the customers. It was said the pawnbrokers were in favour of the Bill, and no wonder, for it would enable them to charge 25 per cent interest in certain cases, the highest rate which they could now charge being 20 per cent. It would also enable them to charge a small sum for the ticket, an arrangement which in the case of small advances for short periods would increase the actual amount of interest from 25 to 50 per cent. These small loans of two and three shillings formed an enormous proportion of the whole. He confessed he disliked such a subject being handled by any other than a responsible Minister of the Crown, and he should, therefore, not object to let the matter sleep for two or three years, till the Government could take it up. Besides, it was certain that, sooner or later, we should have to carry out our free trade policy by extending it to transactions between pawnbrokers and their customers. He would move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.

THE EARL OF MORLEY
said, he was quite aware that the arguments of the noble Marquess had considerable force, particularly as the Bill had only been printed that morning; but, so far from it being a measure that had not been considered by the House of Commons and Her Majesty's Government, the subject had been considered two years ago by a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and the Bill itself had been sent to a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and had been carefully examined by the Home Office. It had been agreed on by both sides, and only one hon. Member had opposed the progress of the Bill. He, therefore, hoped the noble Marquess would not oppose the second reading, as their Lordships would have an opportunity of considering all the provisions of the Bill next week.

§ THE EARL OF HARROWBY
said, he wished to explain that in all transactions above 10s. between pawnbrokers and their customers there would be free trade. It was only in small sums under that amount the pawnbroker was to be forbidden to charge a higher rate of interest. In these cases, the principles of free trade had been interfered with by the existing law; but for higher sums the pawnbroker and his customer would be allowed to make their own bargain. The Bill had met with the approbation of city missionaries and other friends of the poor, and, under all the circumstances, he hoped it approximated sufficiently to free trade to satisfy the noble Marquess.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
said, he would not press his Amendment.