Lords Sitting of 16 May 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—East India Stocks (Dividends)* (116); Lunatics (Scotland)* (117); Postage* (118).
Second Reading—Citation Amendment (Scotland)* (76); Trust Funds (Investments)* (110).
Committee—Bank Holidays (70–120); Judgments (Ireland)* (59, 122).
Committee—Report—Sequestration* (54–121); Anatomy Act (1832) Amendment* (74).
Report—Trades Unions* (114); Criminal Law Amendment (Violence, Threats, &c.)* (115).

BANK HOLIDAYS BILL—(Nos. 70, 120.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
BANK HOLIDAYS BILL—(Nos. 70, 120.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for extending the Bill to payments and acts other than the payments of bills of exchange and promissory notes."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  LORD OVERSTONEsaid, he cordially approved the object and what he understood to be the principle of the Bill. In this country there were at present 54 days in the year, Sundays, Christmas Day, and Good Friday, on which ordinary legal obligations with regard to business were suspended. These were obviously religious holidays in their character and purpose; while the Bill would supplement these by four others, which might be deemed purely secular—namely, the 26th of December, in case Christmas Day fell on a Sunday, Easter Monday, Whit Monday, and the first Monday in August. This step was in harmony with the social tendencies of the times, and the days had been judiciously selected, for three of them immediately followed religious holidays. He also approved the wider scope which the noble Marquess proposed to give to the Bill; but he would suggest the omission throughout the measure of the word "bank," as one which had no legally defined meaning, was very ambiguous, and was likely to lead to confusion. Moreover, he saw no reason why these opportunities of relaxation should be confined to persons employed in banks. What was to be desired was that all persons in this hard-working country should have such opportunities. The word "general" might be substituted for "bank."
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he entirely concurred with the views of the noble Lord (Lord Overstone) in the propriety of extending the scope of the Bill:—no good purpose would be served by confining its action to banks—but still he could not go so far with the noble Lord as to say that it was necessary to construct anew the language of the Bill. The Bill, after all, was in the main a Bank Holiday Bill, and there was no reason why that title should not be used. It would be a Bank Holiday Bill, for this reason, that banks were subject to those compulsory duties which required legislation to relax. He believed it would be a very great improvement in the Bill to extend its provisions from banks to other institutions; but he trusted the noble Lord would not persevere in his intention to go through the Bill and change all its terminology—to do so would create a good deal of delay—more especially as his object would be met, even although at the cost of symmetry,

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  by the Amendment which he (the Marquess of Salisbury) proposed to move.
  LORD REDESDALEthought six holidays in the year would not be too much to give to persons who were closely confined to business, and they should be equally distributed over the year. The present Bill gave only four, and there was a large portion of the year during which no holiday intervened at all. If there was a holiday on the first Monday in February, and another on the first Monday in November, this would give a holiday in every two months. He did not know whether this would be acceptable to the promoters of the Bill; if not, the Amendment could be struck out when the Bill went back to the House of Commons.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, he doubted whether the Instruction was necessary, as without it the Committee would have ample power to alter the title or scope of the Bill, and it might set an inconvenient precedent.
  Lord CHELMSFORD and Viscount EVERSLETagreed that the Instruction was unnecessary.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House in Committee.
  Clause 1 (Bills due on bank holidays to be payable on the following day).
  LORD COLONSAYsaid, he had to propose an Amendment extending the operation of the Bill to Scotland.
  Amendment moved, after ("banks") insert ("in England and Ireland and in Scotland respectively.")—(The Lord Colonsay.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he thought that bills falling due on these holidays should be payable on the day preceding, or, if that day were a Sunday, on the Saturday previous. This was the law with regard to existing holidays, and he thought it would be equally consistent with uniformity and convenience to apply the same law to the new holidays. There would otherwise be this anomaly—Good Friday bills would be payable on the preceding Thursday, and Easter Sunday bills on the Saturday, while the Easter Monday bills would not be payable till Tuesday.
  Amendment moved, line 14, leave out ("next following") and insert ("preceding.")—(The Duke of Richmond.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that those who would be principally affected by the Bill were opposed to the Amendment. A circular had been sent round to the London banks connected with the clearing house; and from the Returns it appeared that none of them were in favour of the Amendment; in five the partners were divided, and the remainder—more than a dozen—were against it. The Liverpool Chamber of Commerce also opposed it, as a hardship to small traders.
  LORD OVERSTONEthought the opinion of the House of Commons, which contained so many persons affected by the clause, and which had passed the clause in its present shape without objection, was entitled to great weight; and there was a clear and distinct statement of the bankers of London that they were in favour of the Bill as it stood. Their Lordships should, therefore, pause before they made the alteration suggested. The Amendment, moreover, would create an injustice, for persons abroad holding bills on London and knowing nothing of these holidays might present their bills too late, and lose their remedy. The true principle seemed to be that if the law interposed an obstacle to the performance of an engagement on a given day, it ought to be performed on the first subsequent opportunity—namely, on the following day. The holidays created by the Bill would all fall on the Monday, and great inconvenience would result if bills payable on Monday were made payable two days before. Saturday would be overloaded with the business of the following Sunday and Monday; whereas it was desirable that employés should be released as early on Saturday as possible, in order that they might join their families and friends in the country.
  VISCOUNT HALIFAX, though he had at first approved the Amendment, admitted the force of the reasons just given by the noble Lord, and he therefore hoped the Amendment would not be persevered with. Indeed, he thought it would be desirable to make bills falling due on existing holidays become payable on the following day, and to abolish days of grace, which were a very anomalous provision.
  LORD CAIRNSrecommended the withdrawal of the Amendment, believing that, after the discussion raised by his noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond), an effort would hereafter be made to attain uniformity in another manner. Irrespective of the reasons adduced by the noble Lord (Lord Overstone) against the Amendment, it should be considered that one of the provisions of the Bill was that a holiday might be proclaimed by the Crown; in which case persons abroad could not be expected to be aware of it, and to send in their bills for collection by the previous day. There really was no argument for the law that bills should be payable the day before they were due. He concurred in the propriety of abolishing days of grace.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he was satisfied with having called attention to the anomaly, and would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Provision as to notice of dishonour and presentation for honour) agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he would now move the clause which he had in view in proposing an Instruction to the Committee. It provided that—
  "No person shall be compellable to make any payment or to do any act upon such bank holidays which he would not be compellable to do or make on Christmas Day or Good Friday, and that such obligation shall be transferred to the following day."
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Appointment of special bank holidays by Royal proclamation).
  LORD COLONSAY LORD COLONSAY moved in page 2, line 5, to leave out ("England and Ireland"). In the proper place he would move that the Schedule extend to England and Ireland only, with the view of having a separate Schedule for Scotland.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that in the interests of uniformity it was desirable that Scotland should have the same mercantile holidays as England. Great inconvenience might arise from having different holidays in different parts of the United Kingdom. He hoped the Scotch, reserving all ecclesiastical questions, would be willing to observe the English Whit-Monday.
  LORD COLONSAYsaid, he could not yield to this appeal. The 15th of May, the Scotch Whitsuntide term, commonly called Whitsun-day, was the most important business day in the year as to money transactions—and it could not be made a variable day, dependent, he believed, on lunar influences, without changing the entire habit of the country.
  EARL GREYasked, whether a large proportion of the population of Scotland did not already observe the English Whit-Monday as a holiday?
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLreplied that none observed it unless they had been contaminated by the English custom. In his youth he had never heard of Whit-Monday as a holiday. Whit-Sunday in Scotland always fell on the 15th of May, no matter on what day of the week, and was a most important day, rents being paid, and a large number of the working classes removed from one residence to another.
  EARL NELSONsaid, he did not see why the Scotch should object to alter the day, as they at present doubtless did so when the 15th of May fell on a Sunday.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Schedule.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP moved, after Monday, to insert Ascension Day in the list of holidays, on the ground that this would be advantageous to some as an additional secular holiday, while it would enable others to observe it as a religious festival.
  VISCOUNT HALIFAXobjected to the Amendment. It was opposed to the principle on which their Lordships had previously acted with reference to this Bill. The great advantage of having holidays on two consecutive days had been pointed out; but with this Amendment there would be three holidays all in one month, and thus the advantage of a more equal distribution would be lost.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that at any rate holidays in May were likely to be suitable for out-door enjoyment.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYdoubted whether any good would be done by the proposed Amendment; but he should be sorry to vote against it, because, for reasons other than those which had been adduced, he wished the day to be observed as a holiday. But he thought

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  the proposal was not likely to be viewed with favour by many in their Lordships' House; and he was sure it would be viewed with disfavour in the other House, because it departed from the principle of the Bill, which was to legalize those holidays which were observed by general usage as purely secular holidays. He thought that this Motion was inopportune, and that it would not attain the object in view.
  THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTERsaid, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed to a division. He knew the object of the noble Earl was to give greater facilities to those who desired to observe the day; but it was not desirable that the mass of the population should confound together a State holiday and an ecclesiastical day. The present mode of observing Good Friday was not of a character to encourage the inclusion of Ascension Day in this Bill. He would, therefore, urge his noble Friend, on his own grounds, not to press his Motion to a division.
  Motion (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Page 3, line 1, after ("SCHEDULE") insert:
  ("Bank holidays in England and Ireland.")
  Line 2, leave out from ("Monday") to the end of the Schedule, and insert:
  ("The Monday in Whitsun week.
  "The first Monday in August.
  "The twenty-sixth day of December.")
  On Motion of the Marquess of SALISBURY, an Amendment made that the 26th day of December should be always a holiday, whether it fell on Monday or on any other weekday.
  LORD COLONSAYobserved, that New Year's Day and Christmas Day had been observed from time immemorial, and he proposed to introduce Good Friday, which was already observed to a great extent as a bank holiday. He moved—
  At end of Schedule insert:
  ("2. Bank Holidays in Scotland.)
  New Year's Day.
  Christmas Day.
  If either of the above days falls on a Sunday the next following Monday shall be a bank holiday.
  Good Friday.
  The first Monday of May.
  The first Monday of August.")
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYexpressed a hope that, if possible, the passage of the Bill would be expedited, so that it might come into operation before the approaching Whitsuntide.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday next; and Standing Orders Nos. 37. and 38. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 120.)

CITATION AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL—(No. 76.)—SECOND READING.
(The Earl of Airlie.)
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF AIRLIE, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, he regretted that the Bill had not been entrusted to some of the noble and learned Lords who were better acquainted with the subject than he was, and better able to deal with the peculiarities of the custom with which the measure was intended to deal. To the people of Scotland what the Bill dealt with was a matter of much interest and importance. As their Lordships were probably aware, the Bill had already passed through the other House, and had met with the approval of many eminent Members on both sides of that House. The object of the Bill was to amend the process of citation in Scotland, and to make the system somewhat similar to that existing in England. By an Act of the Scottish Parliament, passed in the reign of James V., the affixing of copies of letters or precepts to the gate or door of a house, after the officer had given six knocks, and failed to get an entrance thereto, was made a lawful and sufficient citation. As their Lordships might imagine, such a system gave rise to many evils. This was known in Scotland as the "Lockhole" citation. He believed Scotland was the only country in which such a practice prevailed. The whole thing was left to the discretion of the officer serving the citation, no matter what manner of person he might be. The consequence was that those officials took very little trouble in serving the citation personally, and the person served often knew nothing of the matter until he found himself arrested. In England this was not the case. The server of such documents in England was obliged to do his best to serve personally, and evidence was necessary that the service had taken place. In Scotland the citation was thrown into the keyhole, and no trouble was taken as to

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whether the person required continued to live on the premises or not. In fact, he had heard of a case in which it was no secret that there had been no citation served at all; the official, knowing that it was quite sufficient for him to say that such a service had taken place, did not give himself the trouble to go through the formality, yet when the requisite number of days had passed, the person who should have been served was arrested, and had to bear the consequences. A Commission had sat upon the subject, and had strongly recommended an alteration in the law. Mr. Justice Willes and other eminent authorities also recommended an alteration in the law. In the Bill, most of the recommendations of the Commission and the Committeemen who had given their opinion on the subject were turned to account. The Bill proposed to do away with the lockhole system altogether. There would be no more affixing of citations to the gate or door of a man's house, or, in the case of the defender having removed from his house, leaving a citation in the hands of an inmate. In certain cases, a registered letter by post was substituted for the lockhole system. The case of a person refusing access or concealing himself culpably, was fully provided for in the Bill. Where the citation about to be served was on a Small Debt Court summons of removal from any house or premises, if the defender could not be found, and his place of dwelling for the time was not known, or admission to it could not be obtained, a copy of the summons must be affixed to some particular part of the premises from which removal was sought, and intimation of such affixing must be sent in a registered letter, by post, to the last known address of the defender. These were the principal provisions of the Bill. The question involved was very simple. Possibly the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Colonsay) might not consider that the Bill was altogether perfect, and would like to make some alterations in it. He would have full opportunity of doing so; but he (the Earl of Airlie) trusted that the object of the Bill was sufficiently just to meet with general approval.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Airlie.)
LORD COLONSAYsaid, he fully approved of the object of the Bill. His
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chief objection to it was that it was not sufficiently comprehensive. It carried out to a certain extent the recommendations of the Commission, and so far he approved of it. He thought that the affixing of a copy ought not to be altogether dispensed with, for it might be the means of giving information to a defender where a post letter could not do so. He also thought that the clause as to actions of removing was out of place in a Bill expressly confined to Small Debt Courts. He should not, however, further deal with these matters at this stage. He should content himself with saying that, on the whole, he was glad that a Bill had been framed on the subject.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 8th of June next.

NAVY—SUPPLY OF COAL.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE, in rising to put a Question to the Government as to the supply of North Country coal to the Navy, said, that coal was a subject not often referred to in their Lordships' House. A few nights ago the question of gunpowder was discussed, and coal was quite as important to Her Majesty's Navy as gunpowder. When gunpowder was discussed, the noble Lord who represented the War Office in that House (Lord Northbrook) produced specimens of the article; but he (the Earl of Lauderdale) had not brought with him any specimens of coal, but, as a substitute, he would endeavour to explain the different descriptions of coal. Two sorts were used for steam purposes, but chemists, geologists, and engineers had decided many years since that the best for that purpose was Welsh coal, because it produced more steam for a given weight than almost any other coal, and an important recommendation was that, not being bituminous, it made little smoke. Latterly, "North Country coal" had been introduced into use for the Navy; but, in his opinion, it was not adapted for that purpose. First of all, it made considerable smoke, and on that account was highly unsuitable for Her Majesty's ships in time of war. A vessel using coal that made smoke became visible at daybreak to the enemy, who, if he wished to escape, would immediately be off, and even with

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greater steam power by two miles an hour it might take a whole day to catch him, and he would have an excellent chance of getting away altogether. It was almost as bad at night. The North Country coal not only made a great deal of smoke, but accumulated soot, which frequently caught fire, and in that case a vessel's funnel might be mistaken for a lighthouse; and on one occasion, a ship's funnel illuminated in this way had actually been mistaken for a volcano on the top of the Andes, 200 miles off. It was of the utmost consequence to have the best description of coal supplied to the Navy, because the best coal could be stowed away in the smallest compass. From the specific gravity of Welsh coal, 100 tons could be stowed where only 80 tons of North Country coal could be stowed, or a difference of one day's coal in five. Coal was becoming more important in the Navy than powder. Actions were fought before gunpowder was used, and the ancient mode of fighting by ramming was again to be used; and even now actions were generally settled by bayonet, cutlass, or the butt-end of the musket. That, however, was not the finale; for generally at the end of a battle, arms were thrown away and legs were resorted to. One party had to run and the other to follow; and as ships in the Navy were now built without masts, a vessel could neither escape nor chase without plenty of good coal. The Navy was now supplied with a mixed coal, known to sailors as "Baxter's Mixture." It was composed of Welsh and North Country coal. He had a high opinion of the best kind of "Baxter's Canvas;" but a very indifferent one of his Mixture. Another objection was that in order to use it the furnaces had to undergo alteration. It could only be used by altering the furnaces so as to admit more air, occasionally a loss of 30 per cent took place by using mixed coal and shortening the furnaces. The only objection to the Welsh coal was that it was somewhat friable and occasioned dust; but the dust could be burnt in the furnaces. It was of the utmost consequence that the Navy should be supplied with the best possible coal as well as with the best possible gunpowder; but he could not help saying that, in his belief, it had neither the one nor the other. Not long ago the Admiral commanding Her Majesty's fleet in the Mediterranean made a very
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important signal; but as Baxter's Mixture was being burnt on board, the signal could not be understood. The Admiral reported the circumstance to the Admiralty, in the belief that it was his duty to do so; but from some unknown cause no notice appeared to be taken of his intimation, as he never received any reply or acknowledgment whatever from head-quarters. Under these circumstances, he wished to know, Whether it is the intention of the Admiralty to continue to supply North Country Coals to Her Majesty's ships for steam purposes?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNadmitted it was of great importance that the coal used in the Navy should be of the first quality for steam purposes, its stowage as small as possible, its steam power as great, and that it should emit very little smoke; and he was extremely sorry to hear that the noble Earl entertained so low an opinion of what he was pleased to call "Baxter's Mixture." The noble Earl opposite had alluded to the opinions held by several naval officers in support of the view he had taken on this subject; and he (the Earl of Camperdown) went so far with him when he said that, at first, a greater number of the reports to the Admiralty had been unfavourable to the existing sysem. But a variety of experiments had been made; they were continued during the whole of last year, and the results had been increasing in favour of the mixture of Welsh with North Country coal. During last year it was found that by altering the shape of the furnace, an increase of steam power might be produced, and it was expected that smoke would no longer be the occasion of complaint. Certain experiments had been carried out on board the Lucifer and another of Her Majesty's ships, and it was possible they might be continued in those vessels. He believed he was also in a position to state that the head of the Steam Reserve, Captain Rice, who was opposed to the mixture before those trials took place, had, since the change in the furnaces, changed his opinion in its favour, as compared with the results obtained from any coal in the old furnaces. It was the intention of the Admiralty to supply that mixed coal to Her Majesty's ships. Experiments were being continued both in the Mediterranean and Channel Fleets, the Iron Duke and the Vanguard being

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specially selected for the purpose, and until the experiments were reported on it was intended to continue the use of the mixture.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE, in reply, said, that when a marine engine was bought into the service, and was tried, the manufacturer always required that it should be tried with the best Welsh coal, and the great steam packet companies would not use the North Country coal.
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Friday next, half past Ten o'clock.