MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS. (Hansard, 9 May 1871)

§ LORD BUCKHURST
rose to move An Address to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty would be graciously pleased to take into con- 463 sideration the case of Mrs. Burgoyne, widow of the late Captain Burgoyne, of Her Majesty's ship "Captain," with a view to her relief from the pecuniary liabilities which she had incurred in consequence of the loss of that ship. The noble Lord said, that his attention having been called to the circumstances of this case, he felt it due to the memory of the gallant officer who was lost in the ill-fated Captain, and also to Her Majesty's Government, to ask if the statements which had appeared in the public prints were founded on facts within their cognizance. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Camperdown) admitted the general facts, but justified the course which had been pursued because of the danger of establishing a bad precedent. No doubt it would be a dangerous precedent for the Admiralty to pay the bills of deceased officers; but this was a very exceptional case. The late Captain Burgoyne, on the part of the officers of the ship, had made himself liable for certain payments amounting to upwards of £500, which were customarily defrayed by the officers, for ship's articles, such as stationery and other things required in the officers' mess-room, including also band instruments and uniforms of the band. The Admiralty were not asked to pay this sum as representing bills incurred by the officers; but because, in consequence of the sudden loss of the ship, the expense of all the officers had fallen upon the widow of Captain Burgoyne, who had made himself responsible for his brother officers. The noble Earl had stated that the creditors of the late Captain Burgoyne had not been referred to Mrs. Burgoyne for the payment of any of these bills. But he (Lord Buckhurst) had the best authority for stating that the person who supplied the uniforms for the band did apply to the Admiralty for payment of £46, and that the answer given was that he must apply to Mrs. Burgoyne. The noble Earl had stated that £210 had been paid to Mrs. Burgoyne for furniture, with a view of compensating in some way for her other losses; but that sum was really owing to Captain Burgoyne as part of what was due for the outfit, and even that was not paid till after the question had been noticed in the public Press; at least it had not been paid on the 17th of April. Considering the very painful and exceptional circumstances of the loss of the Captain, he thought the case a very hard 464 one. The widow of a young and gallant officer, owing to the temporary responsibility incurred by her husband, was left liable for the bills of the officers of the ship, who lost their lives in the service of their country. He did not believe the country would endorse such a decision—if that was the decision of the Board of Admiralty—nor did he believe their Lordships would give it their sanction.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE
joined in the hope that Her Majesty's Government would arrange that some compensation should be given to the widow of Captain Burgoyne. This was a totally exceptional case. It was the case of a ship sent out experimentally by the Government—such experiments necessarily incurred risk and danger, and if an exception to the practice of the Admiralty were not made in a case of that kind, no men would be got to go with a ship so sent out. Officers might be got, for they looked to promotion; but it would be impossible to find men, as they could get employment in other ways. As far as he could make out the Admiralty had done nothing for the widows of the crew of the Captain, beyond granting them a year's pay, which they were entitled to demand as a matter of right according to the rules of the service. But the country at large at once saw the claim which the widows and orphans of those men had upon them, and a large sum of money was collected for their use; but the fact of such a subscription being raised did not excuse the Government of the country from doing their duty to those unfortunate widows and children. The rules of the Navy were rather extraordinary on some points. If there should be a total loss of one of Her Majesty's ships and everybody on board drowned, the Government paid nothing to the relatives, whatever property the men who lost their lives might have carried out with them. If a ship were not a total loss, but if the crew lost all their clothes, the Admiralty made them 465 an allowance. If, however, the clothes did not entirely disappear, but happened to remain under water for five or six weeks and became totally useless for wear, the Admiralty then gave the crew hardly anything at all. For the purpose of compensation there must be a certificate that the clothes were totally lost. If he had a gold laced coat under water for six weeks, and it came up as black as a coal, still, as it was not a total loss, nothing would be allowed him. He had heard it said that if sailors were paid too well for their clothes they would not take care of them. That might be all very well as a general rule; but he trusted that in this case the Government would at any rate discharge the debts incurred for band instruments.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
said, he hoped that in replying to the observations of the two noble Lords who had just spoken, no expression of his would be construed as implying that he did not feel the deepest sympathy for Mrs. Burgoyne, and for the widows of the officers and men who were lost in the unfortunate Captain. He was merely about to argue an abstract case on its merits. Some of the remarks he should have to make were in substance made the other night; and he presumed that the noble Lord (Lord Buckhurst) in now moving an Address to Her Majesty did so rather with a view of affording himself an opportunity of expressing his opinions than of seriously pressing the Motion on the House; for in presenting an Address to Her Majesty praying for a grant of money, their Lordships would be taking a step which could lead to no practical result, as it was not within the competence of that House to originate Motions with regard to grants of money; and if Her Majesty should graciously think fit to pay these debts out of her private funds—which was the only way in which a favourable answer could be given to this Address—Her Majesty would do so proprio motu. The noble Lord who made the present Motion had attributed to him (the Earl of Camperdown) one or two observations, which possibly he might have used, but which he had never intended to use. The noble Lord said he had stated the other evening that the Government had paid to Mrs. Burgoyne £210 to meet these debts. Now, what he really said, or intended to say, was that the Government had paid that sum, 466 not to meet those debts, but that the debts might be met by it. There was a wide distinction between the two phrases; because he maintained that these debts were essentially private debts for matters purchased for the use and convenience of the officers of the ship, and of which the Admiralty could take no cognizance. The noble Lord also said that the £210 had not been paid to Mrs. Burgoyne until recently, and that Captain Burgoyne when he went to sea only took part of what the Admiralty were bound to pay him. [Lord BUCKHURST: He might have taken £350.] That money, or the money's worth, was the entire allowance for furniture, &c., of the whole of which, if an officer did not avail himself, the Admiralty did not feel called on to pay him the difference. The debts to which allusion had been made were private debts, and if the Admiralty paid them, it would be establishing a precedent for paying every officer now living the amount of debts incurred for the purchase of similar articles. The claim for these debts was not sent into the Admiralty as made upon Captain Burgoyne, and the Admiralty did not refer the creditors to Mrs. Burgoyne; but he might mention that, since the noble Lord spoke the other night on the subject, certain other creditors had sent in claims upon other officers. The Admiralty certainly did not refer creditors to Mrs. Burgoyne, but only answered the demand by saying that the Admiralty did not take cognizance of private debts. He would here remark that Mrs. Burgoyne, though she had suffered a great loss in the death of her husband, was not the only wife who had lost a husband on the occasion; and, though an appeal was made for her and her alone, it was obvious, if a favourable answer to that appeal was made, the claims of the widows of the other officers and of the men must be considered; and their Lordships must bear in mind that the loss of life at sea was a misfortune of not infrequent occurrence. Supposing this Address agreed to, the Admiralty had no funds available to meet it. Any grant made must be made at the instance of the Government and with the concurrence of Parliament, and must not fall upon the ordinary expenditure of the year. There were three conditions on which this grant could be made. It should be regarded as a donation, and should be made en- 467 tirely without reference to these debts; the widows of officers and men should be treated alike, and as all had equally suffered, what was done should be done for all; lastly, the grant, if made, should not fall upon the expenditure of the year—because by this means only could they avoid creating a precedent which would be most awkward in any future case of the kind. Noble Lords who had been in office knew how difficult it was to make an exception without entirely breaking down the rule. When the relatives of any officer drowned in the execution of his duty were treated exceptionally, the case was certain to be appealed to as a precedent, and he thought justly so, by future sufferers. The subject, however, had been brought under the notice of the Government since it had last been mentioned to their Lordships, and as no decision had yet been arrived at, he hoped that, in the meantime, the noble Lord would withdraw his Motion.

§ LORD BUCKHURST
said, that understanding that the matter was under consideration by the Government, he was willing to withdraw his Motion.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE
said, he was quite aware that the Admiralty had no funds out of which they could compensate the sufferers, but they could apply to the Treasury who had funds; and if they were refused there they could go direct to Parliament, and he had no doubt that Parliament would give a reasonable grant for such an exceptional case.