Lords Sitting of 23 March 1871

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Walsingham, after the death of his father.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—University Tests.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Lunacy Regulation (Ireland) (17); Stamp Act (1870) Amendment* (45); Income Tax Assessment* (48).
Report—Prison Ministers* (53).
Third Reading—Benefices Resignation* (52), and passed.

FRANCE—STATE OF PARIS.

  QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Government had received any official information respecting the state of affairs in Paris, accounts of which had appeared in some of the evening papers?
  EARL GRANVILLE: I am sorry to say that I have received information of a very sad character, entirely confirming what your Lordships have already seen in the newspapers—particularly with regard to the frightful massacre of unarmed persons. It seems to have been a most wanton outrage. I have heard that when the National Guard fired on the people, they were so close to them that they had hardly room to raise their muskets, and that it was under these circumstances they killed or wounded a large number of persons. Having fired, they threw up their muskets, and those behind them fired over their shoulders. On the other hand, I may mention that Lord Lyons informs me that M. Thiers has communicated to him his strong belief that the Government is master of the situation, and that in no very long time they will be able to deal effectually with the state of things in Paris.

LUNACY REGULATION (IRELAND) BILL.
(No. 47.) (The Lord O'Hagan.)
LUNACY REGULATION (IRELAND) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD O'HAGAN, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the object of the measure was to apply to Ireland, with some improvements, the reforms effected in England nearly a quarter of a century ago. The

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  latest statistics showed that there were at large 6,000 lunatics of whom no account was given, and that there were at least 1,622 who might be supposed to have property, and ought to be under the protection of the Court of Chancery; whereas only 156 were actually under its protection. This unsatisfactory state of affairs was to be attributed to the absence of any means of ascertaining the lunatics who possessed property, and to the expensive and complicated procedure of the Court. In the smallest case there had to be a commission, consisting of two Judges and a jury; so that the expense could scarcely be less than £60, was usually as much as £100, and was frequently much more. When, moreover, a lunatic was placed under the protection of the Court the expense was enormous, there being a formal petition, every part of which had to be verified at every step. The measure which he now submitted to their Lordships was a complete code of regulating the law relating to Commissions of Lunacy in Ireland, and the procedure under the same, and to the management of the estates of lunatics, and to provide for the visiting and protection of the property of lunatics. It was a very large measure, consisting of no less than 118 clauses. The Bill provided, in the first place, that the present Clerk of the Custodies should be in future styled the Registrar in Lunacy, and should perform all the duties hitherto performed by the clerk; and to him all medical men certifying to a lunacy, all managers of hospitals receiving a lunatic, and all persons dealing with any lunatic, were to make a return. The Lord Chancellor was empowered to order a medical visitor to visit an alleged lunatic, and might order an inquiry on his report, or might order an inquiry before a jury on the demand of an alleged lunatic, or might send the fact for inquiry to a common law court; the order of the Lord Chancellor, or the certificate of the Judge, to be conclusive. The Lord Chancellor might also order an inquiry by legal visiting as to the necessity for taking charge of an alleged lunatic, and might thereon direct the interim administration of his estate by a receiver. The Bill further defined the duties of visitors in regard to the care and treatment of any lunatic. All lunatics were to be visited four times in
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  every year, and the visitors were to make reports to the Lord Chancellor. The Bill then made provisions for the management and administration of estates of lunatics. In order to meet the expenses of proceedings in lunacy where the estates were small, the Bill proposed to establish a lunacy fund, as was established in England in 1853, by a percentage on the estates administered to defray the cost of the machinery; but small estates not exceeding £100 were free from the percentage. He believed the Bill would be a substantial boon to Ireland, would effect a valuable assimilation of the law, and would benefit a class which more than any other was entitled to care and sympathy.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord O'Hagan.)
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, he believed the regulations proposed in this Bill would, taken as a whole, be found as useful in Ireland as similar ones enforced in England now were. One or two provisions of the Bill, however, required more explanation than that afforded by the noble and learned Lord (Lord O'Hagan). The question of percentage on lunatics' estates managed by the Court of Chancery was first introduced in this country by a Bill passed a few years ago; the same kind of proposal was made in the present measure; but he remarked that the percentage was different in the amount. Another part of the Bill requiring further consideration was that which related to the payment of officers' salaries. The Lord Chancellor appeared to possess the power of remunerating the Registrar and clerks without the ordinary reference to the Treasury in such, cases. This was too large a power, and he hoped that the provision would be so altered as to limit the amount of the salary—at any rate, to fix a maximum beyond which no officer should be paid.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

METROPOLIS—THE WELLINGTON MONUMENT.

  QUESTION POSTPONED.
  EARL CADOGAN, who had given Notice to ask whether any arrangement has been made by the First Commissioner of Works for the completion

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  within a specified time of the Wellington monument, said, that in deference to the request of the First Commissioner of Works, he would postpone his inquiry as to arrangements for the completion of this monument, having been assured that an arrangement was being made under conditions and guarantees which would be satisfactory to their Lordships and the public; and that, after the terms had been settled, the Government would proceed with the work which had been so long in abeyance. Nearly 15 years had elapsed since he, then sitting in the other House, had suggested the propriety of erecting a monument to the memory of the late Duke of Wellington; yet, at the present time, only the less important half of the work had been completed, while the whole amount voted had been expended; and he was sure that their Lordships would agree with him that it was high time for this wearisome and disgraceful case of incapacity and want of good faith on the one hand, and of official mismanagement and laches on the other, should be brought to an end; and the House would eagerly await the announcement shortly expected to be made, that means had been devised for the completion, within a reasonable period, of this unfortunate and long-suffering undertaking. In fairness, he ought to state that this result would be entirely due to the energy and determination displayed by the present First Commissioner of Works (Mr. Ayrton) in his arduous and protracted struggle with Mr. Stevens, the artist, and his coadjutor, Mr. Penrose—energy and determination which contrasted favourably with the conduct of his immediate predecessor in office, who did nothing; while the authorities were, year after year, set at defiance, while public expectation was baffled, and while public money was squandered. He hoped that as soon as the arrangement had been concluded the noble Marquess opposite would give the House full information on the subject.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, he was obliged by the courtesy of the noble Earl in postponing his Motion. He hoped he should be in a position immediately after Easter to afford their Lordships a full explanation of the course Her Majesty's Government intended to pursue in reference to this matter. As he had already said to the
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  noble Earl opposite, it would be desirable when he had a statement to make, that it should refer not to what was being done, but to what had actually been done. He desired, however, to make one remark with reference to one part of the noble Earl's statement. While he entirely agreed with the noble Earl that the present Commissioner of Works had acted with a decision most creditable to him, he regretted that the noble Earl should have said that the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman in office had been guilty of remissness in this matter. He must remind the noble Earl that this scandal—for that was certainly the only word that could properly be used—did not date from the tenure of office of Mr. Ayrton's immediate predecessor, but had been going on under several successive occupants of office, and was attributable not to any remissness on their part, but to the indulgence with which artists were always treated by those who employed them.
  EARL CADOGANsaid, he had intended to use the plural number, and to apply his remarks to every First Commissioner of Works from 1858 to the present time.

IRISH MILITIA REGIMENTS.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKasked the Under Secretary of State for War, What steps Her Majesty's Government propose taking to ensure the attendance of a sufficient number of officers at the preliminary drills of Irish Militia regiments? He had no intention of criticizing the action of the Government in calling out the Irish Militia. Their Lordships were doubtless aware that the Irish Militia had not been embodied or recruited during the last six years. The consequence was that, at the moment when the order was received to recruit, the regiments were found to be in a very attenuated state, and the number of recruits at the preliminary drills would be unusually large, and to ensure proper drill and discipline an adequate attendance of officers was necessary. In his own regiment, only 395 men were on the roll, and 450 or 500 recruits would be present at the training. The circular at present in force directed the proportionate number of officers that were to attend—namely, one officer for

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  30 to 75 recruits, and two officers for any larger number. It also provided that all officers who desired to attend might do so for instruction during preliminary drill. These officers themselves could only be looked upon as so many recruits. He thought that in the case of disturbances the number of officers allowed would be insufficient to ensure steadiness and discipline. It would hardly be consistent with good policy that from any cause there should be an insufficiency of such officers on occasions of this kind. The recruits of his own regiment and of another regiment which would assemble in the same town would number 700, and under the present arrangement there would only be six officers and adjutants to ensure proper drill and order.
  THE MARQUESS OF EXETERdesired to ask the noble Lord the Under Secretary for War what the Government proposed to give to officers attending preliminary drill? They would not have the advantage of a mess until the regiment was regularly assembled. They could not afford to attend on half-pay; and he thought they should be allowed full-pay when they incurred the expense of attending.
  LORD NORTHBROOKstated, in answer to the first Question, that an arrangement had been made by the War Office with the Lord Lieutenant for the supply of officers to Militia regiments in Ireland during the time of the preliminary training of recruits. If the noble Earl, as commanding officer, of his regiment made application to the Inspector General of Militia in Ireland, provided the number of recruits exceeded 200, he would be authorized to have a captain and two subalterns for the purpose of superintending drill; and, further, should the Inspector General be of opinion that it was advisable that officers of the Line should be brought in to assist at the training of recruits, arrangements would doubtless be made in accordance with that wish. In cases where disturbances were apprehended further assistance would be given. With respect to the Question put by the noble Marquess, he believed that officers called out to assist at the drill of the recruits would have full-pay, and that officers attending for the purpose of receiving instruction themselves would receive 5s. a-day. If he was not correct in this
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  statement, he would communicate with the noble Marquess.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.