SECOND READING. (Hansard, 21 March 1871)

§ LORD CAIRNS
, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that this and the Primitive Wesleyan Methodist Society of Ireland Regulation Bill had been introduced as Private Bills; but his noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond) having drawn the attention of their Lordships to the objects and scope of the measures, as coming more properly within the description of Public Bills, they had been withdrawn from the list of Private Bills and reintroduced as Public Bills. But although they were now public measures, they fell within the description of "hybrid Bills"—Bills which, though a portion of public and general legislation, yet largely affected private interests, and which were, therefore, always referred to the consideration of a Select Committee, where the details could be carefully examined in the same manner as strictly Private Bills were examined. The necessity of this Bill was this. By the Act for Disestablshing the Church of Ireland, provision was made that the clergy and laity of that Church might appoint a representative 328 body, who, being formed, might apply for a charter of incorporation. This had been done; the representative body had been elected; a charter had been applied for and granted. The body thus incorporated was designated "the Church Body," and was empowered to hold the churches, parsonage houses, lands, and other real property reserved to the Disestablished Church, and to hold and administer the large funds which were expected to arise from the commutation of existing interests, or those which might be hereafter derived from voluntary gifts, bequests, and other sources. The Church Body might, in short, be said to be the trustees of the permanent temporal interests of the Church. But though the Act of 1869 made analogous arrangements with respect to the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, and with respect to other recognized religious communities, so far as authorizing the commutation of existing interests and other objects necessary to meet the intended change, it contained no provision for the incorporation of any body similar to the Church Body, as a continuous representative and trustee of the funds belonging to those other religious communities. The Bill of which he now proposed the second reading recited, that by the Act of 1869 the Parliamentary grant, commonly known as the Regium Donum, had been discontinued, and that any minister to whom any annuity was paid from that grant might apply to the Commissioners in the Act mentioned to commute his annuity for a capital sum, which was to be paid to trustees appointed by himself and the General Assembly for his benefit; and it provided that when it should appear that three-fourths of the ministers of any communion had consented to commute, the Commissioners should add 12 per cent to the capital sum for which each life interest had been commuted. The Bill further recited that three-fourths of the ministers of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland had commuted their life interests, and had, with the General Assembly, appointed certain persons trustees to receive the capital sums; and, further, that in order to preserve undiminished the entire amount of the commutation money as a source of permanent endowment for their Church, the members of that Church had agreed to raise a "Sustentation Fund," so as to pay the annuities without touching the commutation money; 329 and that certain additional funds might accrue from time to time by bequest or otherwise—all of which funds had been placed by the commuting ministers, and the Assembly, in the hands of trustees; the recital further stated that the collegiate and educational funds, the churches, chapels, and manses, and other property of the Presbyterian Church, were now in the hands of trustees on behalf of that Church. The Bill proceeded to say that no provision had been made in the Act of 1869 for incorporating any body to act as trustees of the said commutation money, or of any present or future endowment fund for the said Church, or to hold property for any of the uses or purposes of the Church, and that it was desirable to make such a provision. It then proposed to enact that certain persons named (being in fact the persons who were at present trustees under deed or appointment) should be incorporated and constitute one body politic and corporate, by the name and style of "The Irish Presbyterian Church Trustees," upon the trusts and with the powers afterwards specified in a series of clauses. The Bill, in short, proposed to do for the Irish Presbyterian Church what the Act of 1869 did for the Disestablished Church of Ireland—namely, to authorize the formation of a representative body, who should be trustees for the property of the Church, and should make rules, with the consent of the General Assembly, for its management. There were probably some clauses which, when the Bill was considered in Committee, their Lordships might be disposed to dispense with; but all he asked at present was that their Lordships should assent to the general principle of the Bill.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
pointed out that the course adopted in the preparation of the Irish Church Bill had not been followed in the preparation of the Bill before the House. By the Act of 1869 power was given to the Disestablished Church to form themselves into a body who might obtain a charter from the Crown. A charter had accordingly been asked for and granted; but the present Bill actually incorporated the trustees of the Presbyterian body. There was no precedent for this in the case of any religious body in England 330 or Ireland, and the Roman Catholics and the English Presbyterians had their property vested in trustees. He could only agree to the second reading on the understanding that the Committee would have full power to strike out the clauses as to incorporation.

§ LORD CAIRNS
said, the Committee could deal with the clauses in the same way as if it were a Private Bill.