Lords Sitting of 20 March 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Poor Law (Loans)* (50).
Second Reading—Justices Procedure (England) (31).

JUSTICES PROCEDURE (ENGLAND) BILL—(No. 31.)—(The Lord Cairns.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD CAIRNS, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the object of the measure was to consolidate the existing Acts which regulated the procedure and practice of magistrates' and petty sessions courts in England. Their Lordships, he thought, would be aware both of the magnitude and the importance of the task which he had undertaken. There were, he was informed, not less than 10,000 acting magistrates in England and Wales, and nearly 1,000 magistrates' or petty sessions courts, and considering the number of persons interested in them, and the number of cases, small in themselves, but important as regarded their consequences decided by them, their Lordships would see the desirability of collecting in one statute the whole of the law and procedure applicable to such tribunals. The only general Acts which at all resemble consolidation Acts, governing the proceedings before justices, were the Acts generally known as Jervis's Acts, which were passed nearly a quarter of a century ago. Those Acts were not complete Acts of consolidation, and were imperfect in many points of detail, and did not give that facility in the administration of justice which was expected of them. Moreover, various circumstances had since necessitated alterations both in the law and procedure of the courts. Although in England we had not as yet any consolidation of the law of procedure, yet in recent years a consolidation of the law in this direction had been accomplished in Ireland and Scotland—in the former country in 1851 by the Petty Sessions Act, 14 & 15 Vict. c. 93; and for Scotland by the Summary Procedure Act, 27 & 28 Vict. c. 53. The present Bill was originally introduced into the other House in 1865; but, after

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  it had made some progress, the state of Public Business necessitated its withdrawal. Considerable attention had since been paid to the matter with the view of simplifying it as much as possible. Although responsible for the measure in this House, their Lordships were well aware that he had no claim to be its author; but it might be satisfactory to them to know that it had been prepared under the superintendence of Mr. Oke, chief clerk of the Lord Mayor's Court, who was well versed in the subject, and had had large experience both in that court and other petty sessions courts in the country in matters of this description. If their Lordships consent to give the Bill a second reading now he should propose its committal pro formâ on Friday week, for the purpose of rectifying some errors in printing and in the arrangement of the clauses, so that after Easter it might go through Committee in the regular way.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2ª"—(The Lord Cairns.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the Bill was one of considerable magnitude as regarded the number of its clauses. His noble and learned Friend was quite correct in stating that the last attempt at amalgamating the Acts relating to magisterial procedure was introduced in the other House in 1865, where, however, though it had the cordial support of a large number of acting county and borough magistrates, of the Justices Clerks' Society, and of the Jurisprudence Committee of the Social Science Association, it was not proceeded with; and since that time no further proceedings had been taken. Since the introduction of the present Bill he had made inquiries at the Home Office as to the necessity of such a measure, the result being that no complaint had been made by magistrates of the working of the Acts passed 23 years ago by Lord Chief Justice Jervis, which consolidated all the then existing statutes respecting magisterial jurisdiction. He could not find that any serious defect or impediment had arisen. The Bill contained one new provision to which no objection could be offered—especially as it had been for some time in operation in Ireland—namely, one giving police magistrates the power of keeping order in their courts. Although this pur-
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  ported to be a consolidation Bill, he was informed, as the result of a cursory inspection of the measure by a competent legal authority, that care had not been taken to preserve the language of the old Acts. It was most important that this should be done in a consolidated Act, for the language of every Act was subject to criticism and legal investigation, very few being so fortunate as not to require judicial construction, and when such a construction had been definitively settled, it was very undesirable to deviate from the phraseology, as this might necessitate further argument and a new decision. He did not object to the second reading; but he would suggest the reference of the Bill to a Select Committee, as a Committee of the Whole House was hardly competent to discuss a Bill of this character.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYthought that, considering the number of Peers on Select Committees and the number who usually attended the House, the latter were the more select body. If, as appeared desirable, the Bill were referred to a Select Committee, he would suggest a departure from the inconvenient practice of having it a very large body. Three or five Peers would form a sufficient Committee.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2ª accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday the 31 st instant.

GREECE—MURDER OF BRITISH SUBJECTS BY BRIGANDS—MR. F. NOEL.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERYasked the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Whether and when it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to lay before the House such further Papers relative to the Greek Massacres of last year as may show the progress, if any, of the judicial proceedings which were then instituted, and the present position of Mr. F. Noel with regard to that inquiry? He had no wish, he said, to raise debate upon that horrible occurrence, knowing that other noble Lords equally interested in the matter were far more competent to do so; but he was anxious that such further information might be given as would enable the House to discuss the question fully at some future time. It would not be fair

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  to the English Government, to that body which was inaccurately called the Greek Government, or to the other persons concerned, to enter into a discussion on the partial information at present published. His judgment might possibly, of course, be modified by the additional Papers; but as far as the Blue Book of last year went, he could see nothing to cast suspicion on Mr. Noel. It was incredible, indeed, that a gentleman to whom some at least of the relatives of the victims felt a debt of gratitude, should have had any complicity in so horrible a crime.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Government had no objection to produce the Papers, and believed they would be laid on the Table before the end of the week.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he was glad to hear the noble Earl's answer, and thanked the noble Earl (the Earl of Rosebery) for the manner in which he had brought the matter forward. It was clearly desirable to postpone a discussion until the House had the whole case before it. He was sure the noble Earl (Earl Granville) would do everything in his power to obtain a satisfactory solution of the matter; but he felt bound to express his great dissatisfaction with the judicial proceedings at Athens as far as they had yet proceeded. Those proceedings tended rather to confuse than to explain the matter, and, while exculpating every Greek functionary who might be supposed to have been a party to the massacre, to throw the whole blame on an Englishman—he being the Englishman who above all those on the spot concerned in the affair seemed to him to have shown special energy, courage, and good sense.

IRELAND—THE WESTMEATH, &c. (UNLAWFUL COMBINATION) COMMITTEE.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEasked, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to postpone any especial action, legislative or executive, with regard to outrages in Ireland until after the Committee of the House of Commons, which has been appointed to inquire into the state of parts of that country and to conspiracies said to exist therein, shall have reported the result of their inquiries; whether that Committee will examine witnesses, and whether the
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  Committee is expected to make a Report before Easter? The noble Marquess said, he thought that, after the congratulatory remarks in Her Majesty's Speech on the state of Ireland, and the slight importance attached therein to exceptions to its general condition, general surprise had been excited by the proposal of a Committee by the Government. As far back as the 24th of last month the Government intimated their intention to ask the other House to sanction the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry, which the Chief Secretary for Ireland said at the time would be a Secret Committee. On the 27th of the same month the Committee was appointed, and it was then announced by the Prime Minister that the Committee would not have the character of secrecy. Since that day no action had been taken by the Government in the matter, and the inquiry, he was informed, had only just begun. In the interval two deplorable murders had been committed—one in Mayo and the other in Leinster. These outrages, therefore, were not confined to Westmeath. The Government had abandoned the original proposal that the Committee should be a secret one, and that it should consider the remedy to be applied; intimating that their minds were already made up, and their object was simply to obtain in a constitutional manner the co-operation of Parliament in the measures to be taken. These were circumstances which induced all who were interested in the welfare and safety of Ireland anxiously to inquire whether the Government intended to wait until the Committee terminated their labours before taking any prompt action with a view to the repression of the appalling outrages perpetrated in that country. Nobody in this House, and but very few in the other House, or in the country, had expressed any doubt as to the condition of parts of Ireland, and no attempt had been made to thwart the action of the Government. He was surprised, therefore, that nothing had yet been done; and if nothing was to be done before Easter, he would ask whether it was desirable that anything at all should be done?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I am not aware that I have anything to add to what was stated by my noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack the other day when this question was discussed on a Question of the noble and

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  learned Lord opposite (Lord Cairns), except to answer the noble Marquess's Question whether the Committee will examine witnesses, and how soon they are expected to report. I am told that they are already hearing evidence, that it is not expected they will examine many witnesses, that they will consume as little time as possible in the inquiry, and that they will report at an early date.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.