§ Moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will with-hold Her assent from the schemes of the Endowed Schools Commissioners relating to Saint Margaret's Hospital and the Grey Coat Hospital.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I have some remarks to offer to your Lordships in reference to this Motion, and I intend to be heard. I know every school in this parish; I have lived in this parish 40 years, during the whole of which time I have been connected with, and deeply interested in them all, and I cannot help at once declaring that I think you have done a disastrous thing for education in Westminster by the vote which your Lordships have just given. We who have interested ourselves in the matter, the inhabitants of West- 893 minster have been doing our best; we have laboured hard to bring up education to anything like a right tone—to bring up education to something like what it ought to be. When I first knew the parishes of St. John's and St. Martin's they had only about 200 or 300 children in the poor schools, and there are now between 4,000 and 5,000, and I am happy in being able to say it. But, my Lords, instead of enabling us, instead of encouraging us to go on and continue our labours, as we had hoped to do, instead of increasing the number of schools and instead of increasing the number of children who attended them, your Lordships' vote to-night will have the effect of a wet blanket on our energies, a wet blanket has been cast over all the hopes to which the success of past exertions had given birth; and thus for the sake of preserving this comparatively small and unimportant institution of Lady Dacre in the fashion in which it has been going on, you have stopped at once a grand, a great, and a useful scheme of education in Westminster. Now, my Lords, my noble and learned Friend (Lord Cairns) has spoken, as I expected he would do, with honesty and candour of the objects and motives of the Endowed Schools Commissioners. I observed that with much pleasure. I heard nothing from my noble and learned Friend, nor did I expect to hear anything from him in the course of his speech. My noble and learned Friend has abstained altogether from any reference to what has been called the "robbery about to be perpetrated on the poor" and so forth by the proposed scheme of the Commissioners; and I should myself have almost scorned to take any notice of the foolish imputation had it not been for the fact of the noble Marquess having made some remarks upon a public meeting which was recently held in Westminster, at which resolutions favourable to his Motion were unanimously carried.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYAlmost unanimously carried.
THE LORD CHANCELLORAlmost unanimously carried. Now, then, let me tell your Lordships a little about how that meeting was got together, and then I do not think anybody will wonder at the decision that was come to at that public meeting. I must tell the noble Marquess that bills were posted up in 894 all the publichouses in the neighbourhood as at a General Election. There was also a general notice stating that the meeting was to be held to protest against and to prevent the robbery of the poor, and I really was ashamed at that representation having been supported by some of those individuals who were at the meeting. Well, my Lords, we have an old—a very old instance of the effect of the plea of robbery of the poor—
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI rise to Order. The noble and learned Lord is speaking in reply to speeches that have been made in reference to a matter that has been already decided. Your Lordships have already debated and decided on the question, and I apprehend that we cannot now revive the debate. I would suggest the withdrawal of the Motion in order that it may be discussed at a future period.
THE LORD CHANCELLORI have no objection to that course being pursued. I have not the least objection to the noble Marquess's withdrawing the Motion; but depend upon it, I mean to be heard, and I mean to notice and to answer all the arguments that have been advanced to-night.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThen I beg to withdraw the Motion.
§ EARL GRANVILLEThe noble Marquess cannot withdraw the Motion without the Leave of the House.
§ LORD CAIRNSI beg to suggest that the debate be adjourned, inasmuch as the attention of your Lordships was not directed in the debate on the previous Motion to the subject now before the House.
§ Moved, "That the debate be now adjourned."—(The Lord Cairns.)
§ After short interruption—
§ Motion for the adjournment of the debate withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLORthen proceeded to say: My Lords, I am perfectly in Order, I believe, in saying this, that the Motion of the noble Marquess refers to the Greycoat School. I am a Governor of the St. Margaret's Hospital; I am a Governor of the Greycoat Hospital; and having some little interest in those institutions, I beg to tell your Lordships that I most approve of the scheme which is 895 proposed by the Endowed Schools Commissioners. I will remind your Lordships that within recent years the Legislature has dealt successively with all the branches of our education, and has formed them as it were into a hierarchy, rising in due proportions from the elementary schools to the Universities. Parliament having dealt with the Universities—having dealt with the public schools and the endowed schools by enacting laws under which they might be reformed, Parliament, I say, has by the Elementary Education Act, completed what I may call the groundwork of the system of education for all classes, by which it is hoped that, in time, the children of the elementary schools can pass from one grade to the other, and thus to the Universities. The Endowed Schools Commissioners have acted in accordance with the spirit of that legislation; and notwithstanding this, and notwithstanding the very great amount of good that has resulted from their exertions, they are charged with robbing the poor. Now, my Lords, the description "poor" does not necessarily mean the children of the ragged schools. I may mention this matter to your Lordships—that there is an instance of the Court of Chancery having many years ago included a Duchess having an income of £2,000 a-year among the "poor relatives" of a deceased nobleman. I contend that by the term "poor children" is meant those who desire and who deserve a better education—a superior education to that which the circumstances of their parents can afford. It is perfectly well known that the children of well-to-do labouring men attend these schools. And, my Lords, what I do most earnestly desire is, that such children in all elementary schools shall have placed before them the hope of obtaining gratuitously a better and higher education than their parents can afford to give them; such hope to act as a stimulus to exertion on the part of the scholars, and as an inducement to the parents to allow their children to remain longer at school than is the case at the present time with that grade in society to which they belong. My Lords, to revert to that point once more, I assert that the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners would give that very stimulus to the elementary schools which is now so much needed, and it assuredly would enable them to 896 cope more successfully than they have hitherto been able to do with the great difficulty of education in London, which difficulty is to keep the children at school after they are 12 years old; and this parents would be induced and encouraged to do when once they became convinced that diligence and attention on the part of the children might be rewarded by their obtaining an exhibition for a higher school, and that all the prizes of the higher order might be placed within their reach. Now, my Lords, all these bright prospects will be fatally injured unless some such scheme as that which is now under discussion can be carried out. I need hardly assure your Lordships that if, for a single moment, I believed that the effect of the scheme of the Commissioners would be unfavourable to the cause of education for the poor, I would rather cut off my hand than assent to it; but, my Lords, my belief, my firm conviction is that it will have a tendency of an exactly contrary description. Now, my Lords, I do not feel justified in detaining your Lordships longer upon this subject, and in concluding my observations I am sure I need hardly assure you that this with me is no party question—that I have not taken part in the consideration of this question in any, the slightest, degree on any ground of party, but that I have approached the subject with nothing less than an earnest and sincere desire to assist in the good work of education. And, my Lords, let me add that as an inhabitant of Westminster for many years, and as a Governor of the two schools which are now proposed to be dealt with by the Motion of the noble Marquess, I do most earnestly implore the House not to give your sanction or approval of any step which may in any way be calculated to arrest the progress of the most useful reforms which have been inaugurated by the Endowed Schools Commissioners, and which I look upon as a boon and a blessing conferred upon the poorer classes of this country.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYAllow me to remind your Lordships that I ventured to interrupt the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack when he commenced his remarks, only because it appeared to me that this Motion was a simple corollary to the previous one which your Lordships had already accepted 897 and agreed to, and that being so a fresh debate was not expected to take place. But, my Lords, I must now be allowed to state that I object to the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners in reference to these two schools — namely, St. Margaret's Hospital and the Greycoat Hospital, upon exactly the same grounds as those on which I object to their scheme in reference to Emanuel Hospital; and it was under these circumstances that it appeared to me to be unnecessary to trespass upon your Lordships' time by a repetition or reiteration of the arguments which I had already advanced in support of my Motion.
THE BISHOP OF EXETERMy Lords, I do not wish to travel over the ground that has been so ably and eloquently gone over by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, and I assure your Lordships that I will trespass upon your indulgence for a very short time indeed. And, my Lords, permit me to say in the outset that as a schoolmaster and school manager of extended experience, I desire briefly to oppose the Motion of the noble Marquess, and to give my humble but hearty support to the scheme that has been propounded by the Endowed Schools Commissioners for the future management and government of these hospitals. Of course, I do not for one moment venture to offer any opinion upon the point of law involved in these schemes; but I do desire to express my hearty approval of them so far as the education of the poor is concerned, and my firm belief that they will afford it precisely the stimulus that is wanted at the present time. What I desire, my Lords, more than anything else in connection with this question is the good of the poor, and if anybody could show me any scheme which, in my judgment, would be more advantageous to that class of the community than the scheme which is proposed by the Endowed Schools Commissioners, I am sure I need not tell your Lordships that it would receive my support. My Lords, when the Schools Inquiry Commission of which I had the honour to be a member was sitting, several gentlemen who had visited the Exhibition in Paris urged the Commission to recommend the establishment of schools for the technical education of British workmen who were being distanced by the more technically 898 educated workmen of the Continent; it was said that our mechanics and artizans were more deficient in technical education than their brethren in France. The question was discussed, and fully discussed, but the conclusion that the Schools Inquiry Commissioners arrived at was that it was not advisable to waste energy upon technical and art instruction as long as the general education of the people continued so deficient as it then was—the Commissioners felt that before technical education could be promoted and extended it was absolutely necessary that the means of general elementary education for the people should be more amply provided, and that it could only be done and stimulated by some such scheme as that which is now proposed. It is for that reason that I support the scheme. There have been, as your Lordships well know, instances of men rising to high positions in the State, although they have been born in humble circumstances; and we all know that such men have, for the most part, received the foundation of their education in grammar schools where instruction in the higher branches of learning was gratuitously afforded. I entertain the opinion that in any now system of education similar means ought to be provided; but inasmuch as schools of the description that I have named have no longer any existence, I believe that the only way by which this object can be gained will be by providing the schools, and also the exhibitions by means of which the more promising boys in the elementary schools can proceed to the higher branches of learning. A school between that for the working classes and that for the middle classes was found to be wanting, and it seemed to the Commissioners that no better use could be made of the endowments for the poor than by establishing such schools. In my opinion, my Lords, there is no better way of benefiting the poor and the middle class immediately above them by setting up schools of the third grade. That has been objected to, and it has been said that by doing it you are diverting the funds of the donors—that you are taking those foundations away from the poor. That I take leave to deny, and to assert that what is done is done with the intention of giving the poor the greatest gift that can be bestowed upon them — the best blessing which they can receive. It is true that 899 others than the poor are admitted to these schools. It is perfectly manifest that you cannot have good schools for the poor unless they are of a size to attract efficient masters as well as a good staff, and then by admitting children of a different class upon payment you raise the character of the school above the level of one which is merely devoted to elementary education. The advantages which are conferred by the school are not thereby taken away; but, on the contrary, are positively increased for the benefit of the poor. My Lords, as I said a moment ago, other classes than the poor are admitted to these schools, but then they are admitted on payment. Why should they be admitted at all? Because schools cannot be made efficient unless they are sufficiently large to attract teachers, and sufficiently large to attract pupils. The admission of the middle classes into the schools for the poor enables the requisite and thoroughly efficient masters to be obtained. How, then, I ask, can it be said that that is taking away from the poor? Now, my Lords, upon the question of competitive examinations, in my opinion they are good or bad in proportion as they are adapted to the schools in which the children are taught. It is good of the children to govern the examination, but it is bad if the examination govern the children. Upon that very question of competitive examination, I maintain that it is possible to devise a system, even in the case of children below 13 years of age, which would benefit not only the school to which they might come, but also the schools from which they came. The thing has been tried, it has been done in the town of Doncaster under the wise supervision of the present Master of the Temple, and there cannot be the least question of its success. Nor would such a system give a premium to the well-to-do. Everybody knows that boys that come from public schools always beat at competitive examinations those who have received private tuition, and so it will be possible to take the children from the elementary schools and give them, without the slightest unfairness, a distinct advantage in all the competitions. Now, my Lords, notwithstanding the adverse vote which has been come to this night in respect to Emanuel Hospital, I do most earnestly entreat your Lordships not to allow the opportunity 900 to pass by of conferring a vast public benefit on the very class of the community for whom this charity was originally designed, and who will necessarily derive a greater amount of benefit under the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners than under any other system of government.
LORD HOUGHTONsaid, that notwithstanding all he had heard urged against the Motion, he felt much regret in saying that he was compelled on that occasion to separate himself from the party with which he was generally associated, and to vote in favour of the Motion. As far as he was himself concerned, he could not help thinking that very great harm had resulted from applying the principle of competitive examination to all public offices in this country.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that, as the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) had said that the question now under consideration was precisely the same as that of which the House had already disposed, any Member was in Order in addressing to the House any arguments adduced in the former discussion in reference to the question now before them. His noble Friend behind him (Lord Houghton) had stated as his reason for voting against the Government his strong dislike to competitive examination. He himself (the Duke of Argyll) had no fanatical enthusiasm in favour of it, but he believed his noble Friend had been misled by a phrase on this occasion. The scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners was simply that in selecting the poor to be admitted to the benefits of the charity, the best and cleverest child should have the preference. It was not open competition which they proposed, but competition between children who were poor and who had received an elementary education. A great deal of the debate had turned on the question of what was really for the benefit of the poor. In the documents circulated among their Lordships on behalf of the Corporation of London it was stated that all education of a higher kind was really unfit for the poor; but surely the cleverest of the poor were fully entitled to the benefit of a high secondary training? There had been circulated among their Lordships that morning, in the name of the Corporation of London, a document, dated Guildhall, June 28 901 or 29, which contained the following passage:—
We are charged with having made no attempt to make the school the means of eliciting superior qualities and promoting the possessors of them. We freely admit the charge, and we should hold it to be a breach of our trust to divert the bounty intended for the poor and destitute for purposes of higher education.["Hear, hear!] He must say that any body or Corporation that repudiated that argument and actually laid down, as a dogma and a doctrine on which they intended to act, that education of a higher class ought not to be given to the poor—such a body ought no longer to be intrusted with the management of schools. The Motion which had been carried that evening by a small and insignificant majority would carry no weight in the country; but, at the same time, it would stop the operations of the Commissioners, as it laid down a principle opposed to the whole system recommended in the Report of the Endowed Schools Commissioners. The principle on which the Motion was based was that no change ought to be made in schools unless positive abuses could be proved to exist in them. That, he maintained, was not a principle that ought to guide them in a matter that concerned the education, and therefore, necessarily, the future welfare of the poorer classes; and it was not the principle of the Act of Parliament, the Preamble of which stated in distinct terms that an inquiry had been held by certain Commissioners, who had made recommendations for the purpose of improving education in that country, keeping as far as possible to the main intentions of the testators; and it distinctly stated that it was the object and intention of the Act that the Commissioners should carry into effect the main recommendations of that Report. What were those main recommendations? One was, that the management of schools should no longer be in the hands of bodies who were not elected for that purpose, and should not be in the hands of bodies who were not ashamed to own that they would refuse to the poor and destitute—even to the best and cleverest among them—the advantages of a better and higher education. Another principle was, that gratuitous education should not be indiscriminately given. These were the two principles—the two main principles 902 —contained in that Report, and the Report was embodied in the Act of Parliament; and he maintained that the noble Marquess had persuaded a small majority of their Lordships, by appeals to their feelings and prejudices, to adopt an Address the main object and effect of which would be to neutralize a solemn Act of Parliament.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, that after the decision of their Lordships in respect of the previous Motion, he would not put their Lordships to the trouble of dividing.
§ On Question, Whether to agree to the said Address? Resolved in the Affirmative.
§ Ordered, That the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.
§ House adjourned at half past Nine o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.