MOTION FOR A RETURN. (Hansard, 20 June 1871)

§ LORD BUCKHURST
moved, That there be laid before the House a Copy of the List of Endowed Schools which it is proposed to include in the Scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners, to be submitted during the present year. Those schemes had so widely departed from what was contemplated that they had caused a wide-spread feeling of alarm. The large schools coming under the notice of the Commissioners might have ample time to consider their position when the scheme for their re-organization was submitted to them, and had the power of appealing. But the large number of small schools — those with incomes not exceeding £100 a-year—would have no appeal at all. It was in order that their Lordships might have information what schools the Commissioners proposed to deal with that he moved for this Return. Mr. Forster had stated in "another place" that he could point out several most excellent schools which were discovered in the course of their inquiry, and that objections to the Bill he was then about to introduce did not come from the bad, but from the good schools. "Now," said Mr. Forster, "I wish to assure them it is not for the good schools the Bill is intended, though we cannot, of course, exempt such schools by name." 300 According to its Preamble the Endowed Schools Act was passed with the object of providing for the greater efficiency of schools, and of carrying into effect the main designs of the founders thereof by putting within the reach of all classes a liberal education. These, however, were not the principles on which the Commissioners proposed to act.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON
said, their Lordships would see that it was impossible he could accede to the Motion, because, in the first place, there was, as a matter of fact, no list in existence of the endowed schools which it was proposed to include in the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commissioners to be submitted during the present year: and secondly, it would be impossible for the Endowed Schools Commissioners to say, either now or at the beginning of the Session, what were the schools in regard to which they proposed to frame schemes. That, indeed, would depend, among other things, whether the schemes were appealed against under the provisions of the Act: it would also depend on the length of time over which the correspondence between the Commissioners and the persons interested in the localities might extend. All the schemes were under the provisions of the Act, and as the Commissioners placed themselves in the fullest communication with all persons interested in the localities, it was impossible to say what length of time might elapse before the Commissioners were in a position to place any particular scheme on the Table of the House. Consequently, it would be an impossibility to make out such a list as the noble Lord (Lord Buckhurst) had moved for. The noble Lord had said that his main objection had reference to the danger to which small endowments were exposed. Now, he would remind their Lordships that under the provisions of the Act all schemes, whether relating to large or to small endowments, had to be laid before both Houses of Parliament. That which the persons interested in small endowments were deprived of, and which large endowments possessed, was the right of appeal in the shape in which it was given by the 301 clauses of the Act; but every person interested in a small endowment, though he had not the right of appealing in the manner provided by the Act, had the most perfect right and opportunity of appealing in the ordinary, but not in the legal, sense of the word to the Education Department of the Privy Council. Neither his right hon. Friend (Mr. W. E. Forster) nor himself would dream for a moment of disregarding any such representation which might be made to them. Therefore, all that the small endowments were deprived of was the technical right of legal appeal:—which, he might remark, involved a considerable amount of expense. As all these schemes would lie on the Table of the House for 40 days, and as everybody interested in them would have a right to appeal personally to the Commissioners, then to the Education Department, and after that to every Member of this and of the other House of Parliament, he did not think any additional security would be afforded to them by the sort of anticipatory notice of the schemes which were being considered by the Commissioners. He wished to make one remark with respect to what fell from the noble Lord in reference to the operations of the Endowed Schools Commissioners. The noble Lord had said that the proceedings of the Commissioners were, in his opinion, inconsistent with the understanding on which the Endowed Schools Act was passed. It was impossible to reply to general objections of that kind; but if the noble Lord would, on the occasion of any particular scheme being considered in that House, repeat that statement, and prove its correctness in regard to that scheme, he should be perfectly prepared to discuss the question fairly with the noble Lord. He could only say that, whatever might be the individual opinions of the Commissioners, he was confident they felt it to be their bounden duty to act strictly in accordance with the provisions of the Act of Parliament; and that where their opinions did not coincide with the Act they would, from their high character, carry out the wishes of the Legislature in preference to their own.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
thought that if the noble Earl (Earl de Grey and Ripon) had been in his place in that House some weeks ago, and not in America, he would not have thrown out the present challenge to his noble 302 Friend. He (the Marquess of Salisbury) did state in that House that Mr. Forster had said that those schools which were not ill-managed endowments had nothing to fear from the operation of the Act; but it would, he believed, be very easy to show, on a future occasion, that endowments had been dealt with by the Endowed Schools Commissioners which did not come under the designation of ill-managed endowments. He did not rise for the purpose of provoking a discussion now, as that would be to anticipate the Notice he had placed on the Paper; but he wished to make an appeal to his noble Friend with regard to the notice given to these small endowments. It might seem very exacting to say so; but the truth was that the period of 40 days given by the Act to appeal to that House was practically in many cases very much abridged. In the first place, the Endowed Schools Commissioners laid schemes on the Table before they were in print, the result being that of the precious 40 days a considerable number passed away before the schemes became public and were brought under their Lordships' consideration. Thus the Emanuel School scheme was kept unprinted for eight days, during which time their Lordships did not know exactly what it was. This was one inconvenience, and there were other inconveniences attending the notice given to the Houses of Parliament. Indeed, it often was almost impossible for these small endowments to put themselves in motion till the time had passed when, according to the ordinary practice of the two Houses, a day could be named for discussion. Therefore, he thought it but fair that some notice should be given to the smaller endowments that they were in the list of proscriptions laid on the Table by the Endowed Schools Commissioners. If the Commissioners would make out a list of the endowments with which they intended to deal, and if his noble Friend would allow such list to be published, it would be a very considerable convenience. This was the suggestion he had to make as an alternative suggestion to that of his noble Friend who had brought forward the present Motion.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON
promised to consider the suggestion respecting the printing of the schemes; and in regard to the other suggestion of the noble Marquess pointed out that every 303 endowment had an individual notice of at least three months.

§ LORD LYTTELTON
said, the schemes came in one by one, and it was impossible to state at what precise time a particular scheme would be laid before Parliament.

§ LORD BUCKHURST
, in withdrawing his Motion, said, he thought a list of all the schools which were to come under consideration should be supplied.

§ LORD LYTTELTON
said, a list would be found in the Report of the Endowed Schools Commissioners.