§ LORD CAIRNSI wish to give Notice that to-morrow, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I propose to put a Question to the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) with regard to the course of Public Business in this House, with especial reference to the measures expected to come up from the House of Commons. I will also take this opportunity of giving Notice on behalf of my noble Friend the Duke of Richmond, who is unable to be present. My noble Friend, as your Lordships will remember, has given notice of an Amendment which he intends to accompany the second reading of the Army Regulation Bill, and to be appended to the words by which we assent to the second reading. We understand that in some quarters doubts have been expressed as to the regularity of that form of Motion. [Earl GRANVILLE: Hear, hear.] Now, my noble Friend does not at all admit that form of Motion to be contrary to the Rules of the House or altogether without precedent. Nothing, however, could be more undesirable or further from my noble Friend's wish than to have a discussion upon a grave question of constitutional importance prefaced by any controversy upon a point of Order. With a view, therefore, of obtaining a result precisely the same without raising any difficulty as to the form of proceeding, my noble Friend intends to propose his Motion in substitution, in the first place, for the 301 Motion set down in the Orders of the Day. I have therefore to give notice that my noble Friend will, on the Motion "That the Bill be now read a second time," to propose the omission of all the words after "that" in order to insert the following words:—
This House, before assenting to the second reading of this Bill, desires to express its opinion that the interposition of the Executive during the progress of a measure submitted to Parliament by Her Majesty in order to attain by the exercise of the Prerogative, and without the aid of Parliament, the principal object included in that measure is calculated to depreciate and neutralize the independent action of the Legislature, and is strongly to be condemned.Their Lordships would observe that this Motion did not propose to interfere with the second reading of the Bill. It, in fact, invites Government to propose the second reading, possibly at once, or, at all events, on the following day.
§ EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was extremely glad that the change announced by the noble and learned Lord was to be made. He was quite certain that the course originally proposed by the noble Duke would have created a precedent of a most inconvenient and objectionable character.
§ LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, he would now repeat the Question he had asked the other day—namely, Whether the noble Earl had any objection to inform the House what Amendments they proposed to introduce into the Bill in Committee?
§ EARL GRANVILLEreplied, that since the intimation made by him that the Government would not oppose alterations of a certain character if they were more agreeable to their Lordships, and if the opposite side thought it desirable to make them, the circumstances of the case had been considerably altered by the Notice of the intervention of a vote of censure before the second reading was agreed to. Still, there was nothing he said on Thursday from which he desired to withdraw. If any alterations were proposed coming within the compass of what he then stated, Her Majesty's Government would offer no serious opposition to them.
§ VISCOUNT EVERSLEYrejoiced at the change which had just been announced by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Cairns), having been apprehensive that an inconvenient precedent was about to be established by adding a Resolution to 302 the Question—"That a Bill be read a second time." He, of course, could not speak with any authority as to the practice of their Lordships' House; but he could speak with some confidence with regard to the Rules of the House of Commons; and, although he had often known an attempt made to add to this particular Question words giving reasons for the vote, this attempt had always been resisted.
§ LORD REDESDALEsaid, he was sorry to be obliged to notice an irregularity in the Notice of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Cairns); but their Lordships could not allow Notice to be given of a Question to precede the Order of the Day without destroying the regularity of their Orders. If this were allowed Notice might be given of any other Motion to take precedence of the Orders of the Day. There was, however, no objection to the noble Lord giving private Notice of his Question to the noble Earl.
§ LORD CHELMSFORDremarked that the objection of the noble Lord was of a technical character.
§ LORD REDESDALEsaid, an interval of a quarter of an hour was allowed before the consideration of the Orders of the Day in which noble Lords might put Questions of which private Notice had been given; but it would be a departure from all their rules if they allowed a Notice of a Question to be asked before the Orders of the Day to appear on the Notices.
§ LORD CAIRNSregretted having to differ from his noble Friend on a question of Order, but felt compelled to stand up for a most valuable privilege of the House—namely, the power of asking Questions before the Orders of the Day were read. That was a privilege which had been always possessed by the House and largely exercised before the passing of the Standing Orders dealing with the subject of Notices of Questions. But the Standing Order directed that when it was intended to make a statement, or raise an argument in regard to a Question, then, and then only, should Notice be given and put upon the Paper. If it was not intended to raise a debate the power of the House remained exactly as it was before.
§ LORD REDESDALEsaid, he had net the slightest objection to the Question being put before a quarter past 5 P.M., or of private Notice being given to his noble 303 Friend opposite; but he did object in the strongest possible way to Notice appearing on the Minutes of an intention to ask a Question before the Orders of the Day—because if that were permitted, any Question could be raised, and noble Lords would be deprived of the advantages they might have obtained by giving Notice of Orders of the Day, while there would be no regularity with regard to the precedence of those Orders.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, his noble Friend apparently did not mind a thing being done, or an intention being expressed to do it, but it must not be printed. Were they then to do it on the sly? If their Lordships bound themselves by such rigid regulations in reference to such matters as were necessary in the House of Commons, they would lose the main advantage which they derived from their comparative freedom from occupation. But in the House of Commons the privilege of asking Questions before the Orders of the Day was jealously preserved.
§ EARL GRANVILLEagreed with the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale), though he did not think the matter had any practical importance. The Standing Order required Notice to be given in the Orders of the Day of any Question to be prefaced by a statement or likely to lead to a discussion; and, presuming that the noble and learned Lord intended to make a statement, there was no reason why this particular Notice should not be in the same position as the Question about to be proposed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon), which stood at the bottom of the Orders.
§ LORD CAIRNSsaid, he certainly intended to make some observations as to the course of Public Business, and he did not wish to postpone this till 8 or 9 o'clock, when most of their Lordships might have left the House. In the event of any difficulty as to form, he should move the adjournment of the House in order to enable him to make these remarks.
§ LORD REDESDALEstill objected to a Question being placed on the Paper before the Orders, and saw no reason to apprehend that it might otherwise be delayed till 8 or 9 o'clock.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLremarked that there could be no objection to a short Question being put before the Orders of the Day; but the Business of 304 the House would be retarded by one being so put which, with the answer, would occupy some time.