Lords Sitting of 27 July 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Industrial and Provident Societies Amendment* (279); Limited Owners Residence Act (1870) Amendment* (280).
Second Reading—Metropolitan Tramways Provisional Orders Suspension* (274).
Committee—Report—East India (Bishops' Leave of Absence)* (268).
Report — Private Chapels* (275); Charitable Donations and Bequests (Ireland)* (277); Sewage Utilization Supplemental* (234).
Third Reading — Petroleum* (238); Election Commissioners Expenses* (255); Church Building Acts Amendment* [267], and passed.

H.R.H. THE PRINCE ARTHUR.

  MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN.
  Delivered by The Earl GRANVILLE, and read by The LORD CHANCELLOR, as follows:
  VICTORIA R.
  "Her Majesty being desirous of making competent provision for the honourable support and maintenance of her third son, Prince Arthur William Patrick Albert, on his coming of age, relies upon the attachment of the House of Lords to concur in the adoption of such measures as may be suitable to the occasion.
  "VICTORIA R."
  Ordered, That the said Message be taken into consideration To-morrow.

ARMY REGULATION BILL.—THE ROYAL WARRANT.

  NOTICE OF AMENDMENT.
  LORD CAIRNS: I wish to give Notice that to-morrow, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I propose to put a Question to the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) with regard to the course of Public Business in this House, with especial reference to the measures expected to come up from the House of Commons. I will also take this opportunity of giving Notice on behalf of my noble Friend the Duke of Richmond, who is unable to be present. My noble Friend, as your Lordships will remember, has given notice of an Amendment which he intends to accompany the second reading of the Army Regulation Bill, and to be appended to the words by which we assent to the second reading. We understand that in some quarters doubts have been expressed as to the regularity of that form of Motion. [Earl GRANVILLE: Hear, hear.] Now, my noble Friend does not at all admit that form of Motion to be contrary to the Rules of the House or altogether without precedent. Nothing, however, could be more undesirable or further from my noble Friend's wish than to have a discussion upon a grave question of constitutional importance prefaced by any controversy upon a point of Order. With a view, therefore, of obtaining a result precisely the same without raising any difficulty as to the form of proceeding, my noble Friend intends to propose his Motion in substitution, in the first place, for the

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  Motion set down in the Orders of the Day. I have therefore to give notice that my noble Friend will, on the Motion "That the Bill be now read a second time," to propose the omission of all the words after "that" in order to insert the following words:—
  "This House, before assenting to the second reading of this Bill, desires to express its opinion that the interposition of the Executive during the progress of a measure submitted to Parliament by Her Majesty in order to attain by the exercise of the Prerogative, and without the aid of Parliament, the principal object included in that measure is calculated to depreciate and neutralize the independent action of the Legislature, and is strongly to be condemned."
  Their Lordships would observe that this Motion did not propose to interfere with the second reading of the Bill. It, in fact, invites Government to propose the second reading, possibly at once, or, at all events, on the following day.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was extremely glad that the change announced by the noble and learned Lord was to be made. He was quite certain that the course originally proposed by the noble Duke would have created a precedent of a most inconvenient and objectionable character.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, he would now repeat the Question he had asked the other day—namely, Whether the noble Earl had any objection to inform the House what Amendments they proposed to introduce into the Bill in Committee?
  EARL GRANVILLEreplied, that since the intimation made by him that the Government would not oppose alterations of a certain character if they were more agreeable to their Lordships, and if the opposite side thought it desirable to make them, the circumstances of the case had been considerably altered by the Notice of the intervention of a vote of censure before the second reading was agreed to. Still, there was nothing he said on Thursday from which he desired to withdraw. If any alterations were proposed coming within the compass of what he then stated, Her Majesty's Government would offer no serious opposition to them.
  VISCOUNT EVERSLEYrejoiced at the change which had just been announced by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Cairns), having been apprehensive that an inconvenient precedent was about to be established by adding a Resolution to
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  the Question—"That a Bill be read a second time." He, of course, could not speak with any authority as to the practice of their Lordships' House; but he could speak with some confidence with regard to the Rules of the House of Commons; and, although he had often known an attempt made to add to this particular Question words giving reasons for the vote, this attempt had always been resisted.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he was sorry to be obliged to notice an irregularity in the Notice of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Cairns); but their Lordships could not allow Notice to be given of a Question to precede the Order of the Day without destroying the regularity of their Orders. If this were allowed Notice might be given of any other Motion to take precedence of the Orders of the Day. There was, however, no objection to the noble Lord giving private Notice of his Question to the noble Earl.
  LORD CHELMSFORDremarked that the objection of the noble Lord was of a technical character.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, an interval of a quarter of an hour was allowed before the consideration of the Orders of the Day in which noble Lords might put Questions of which private Notice had been given; but it would be a departure from all their rules if they allowed a Notice of a Question to be asked before the Orders of the Day to appear on the Notices.
  LORD CAIRNSregretted having to differ from his noble Friend on a question of Order, but felt compelled to stand up for a most valuable privilege of the House—namely, the power of asking Questions before the Orders of the Day were read. That was a privilege which had been always possessed by the House and largely exercised before the passing of the Standing Orders dealing with the subject of Notices of Questions. But the Standing Order directed that when it was intended to make a statement, or raise an argument in regard to a Question, then, and then only, should Notice be given and put upon the Paper. If it was not intended to raise a debate the power of the House remained exactly as it was before.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, he had net the slightest objection to the Question being put before a quarter past 5 P.M., or of private Notice being given to his noble

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  Friend opposite; but he did object in the strongest possible way to Notice appearing on the Minutes of an intention to ask a Question before the Orders of the Day—because if that were permitted, any Question could be raised, and noble Lords would be deprived of the advantages they might have obtained by giving Notice of Orders of the Day, while there would be no regularity with regard to the precedence of those Orders.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, his noble Friend apparently did not mind a thing being done, or an intention being expressed to do it, but it must not be printed. Were they then to do it on the sly? If their Lordships bound themselves by such rigid regulations in reference to such matters as were necessary in the House of Commons, they would lose the main advantage which they derived from their comparative freedom from occupation. But in the House of Commons the privilege of asking Questions before the Orders of the Day was jealously preserved.
  EARL GRANVILLEagreed with the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale), though he did not think the matter had any practical importance. The Standing Order required Notice to be given in the Orders of the Day of any Question to be prefaced by a statement or likely to lead to a discussion; and, presuming that the noble and learned Lord intended to make a statement, there was no reason why this particular Notice should not be in the same position as the Question about to be proposed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon), which stood at the bottom of the Orders.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, he certainly intended to make some observations as to the course of Public Business, and he did not wish to postpone this till 8 or 9 o'clock, when most of their Lordships might have left the House. In the event of any difficulty as to form, he should move the adjournment of the House in order to enable him to make these remarks.
  LORD REDESDALEstill objected to a Question being placed on the Paper before the Orders, and saw no reason to apprehend that it might otherwise be delayed till 8 or 9 o'clock.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLremarked that there could be no objection to a short Question being put before the Orders of the Day; but the Business of
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  the House would be retarded by one being so put which, with the answer, would occupy some time.

CHOLERA—SANITARY PRECAUTIONS.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONdesired, as the Session, he hoped, was approaching a close, and as there was a considerable pressure of Public Business, to put a Question on a matter which concerned the lives and the health of the people of this country, and it was desirable that the Government should be able to give a satisfactory answer. It had been stated that the cholera, which had repeatedly visited us, was raging in some parts of European Russia, and was steadily moving in a westerly direction. It appeared, from a statement of the Registrar General, that it had broken out in a town in Poland on the Niemdur, was extending, and might be expected to reach Germany within two or three weeks at the outside. He was not aware whether this was to be regarded as a fresh importation of cholera from Russia, or whether, as was to be hoped, it was a revival of a pestilence which existed in that part of Europe four or five years ago, and had showed signs of occasional existence. The Government had probably made inquiries of the Prussian and other German Courts on this point. He had no great opinion of the intervention of the Government in matters of this kind; but some action was desirable, as cholera was, if not wholly, yet partially preventible. A Commission sat last winter, or the year before, on water supply. Now, as was very well known, cholera had generally been found to follow the line of great rivers—whether or not because the water carried the infection he would not say—or whether it was only by the concentration of traffic—but water supply had certainly an important bearing, and demanded the closest attention. He feared it was too much to expect any action to be taken by the Government this year as to this or as to the measures recommended by the Sanitary Commission, for valuable time had been allowed to go by, and the Government could scarcely now, by dint of the utmost energy, achieve any satisfactory result. Yet some steps might be taken, and Her Majesty's Government might put themselves in communication

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  with the local authorities, with a view of preventing, as far as possible, the introduction of the plague into this country, if, indeed, it should be moving towards us. It was to be hoped that the report might be entirely unfounded, and traceable to a pestilence existing in Russia for some time. But whether that was so or not, the duty of Her Majesty's Government was clear, to leave no stone unturned, no effort untried, to guard against the introduction of the disease, and in case of its entrance to circumscribe its operation. The general experience had been that first we had ample warning, then we were found unprepared, and lastly we had dealt with the scourge under the influence of panic instead of having first raised bulwarks against it of scientific principles. It was undoubtedly the duty of Her Majesty's Government to state what they were about to do in regard to a matter of such great importance; and he therefore wished to ask whether Her Majesty's Government are prepared to take any, and, if so, what precautions as to the supposed approach of cholera?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that he had to reply to the noble Earl's Question in the absence of the Marquess of Ripon. He was glad the noble Earl had put the Question, because the existing alarm seemed to him unfounded—to this extent at least—that the prevalence of cholera in Russia and the borders of Poland was by no means a new fact. It had existed in Russia for two years, and ever since last August in St. Petersburg, where there had been a recent increase in in the number of cases, which, however, if his information was correct, were lower than the number some months ago. The only fact of an alarming nature was that cholera had appeared in Wilna, which was, of course, nearer to us than St. Petersburg. He understood it had been there since last April, and also in the western provinces of Russia. He did not mean to say that there was no necessity for taking cognizance of the existence of cholera, or no ground for fearing that it might extend to the rest of Europe; but no now facts had arisen within a recent period, and the disease having existed two years in that part of Europe, and nearly a year in St. Petersburg, there was, at all events, reason to hope that it might not extend beyond its present limits. No intelligence had
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  reached the Government of any case having occurred in Germany. Our representatives in the German Empire had been directed to make special inquiries, and to report whether any case had occurred in Germany, and whether the Governments were taking any special precautions. He agreed with the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) that it was far better to adopt precautions when not under the influence of panic, though it was usually only then that anything was done by local authorities to abate nuisances and take the precautions within our power. The power of the central Government to enforce any considerable precautions was very small. All that could be done was to warn the local authorities, who had been constantly urged to take precautions, and had been furnished with full information as to their nature. The Privy Council would keep their attention fixed to the subject, and would do all in their power to induce the local authorities to remove nuisances, for on their active exertions so much depended. The water supply was, no doubt, an important matter, for in the opinion of many competent persons it was through the water that the seeds of cholera were diffused. This theory might, indeed, turn out erroneous, but it was at present by far the most plausible, being supported by facts of great weight; so that every reasonable person must be anxious for the purity of the water supply and its protection from any infusion of sewage matter. A very important measure was now passing through the other House for bringing under one authority the sanitary powers now divided among the Home Office, the Privy Council, and the Poor Law Board. He believed that when these powers were thus concentrated, and the attention of a single authority given entirely to the subject, useful reforms in the law and in the carrying out of sanitary improvements would be devised.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, he hoped the attention of the Government would continue to be directed to the matter—especially to the question of the water supply—and that the local authorities would attend to the flushing of the sewers and other precautions. This alarm, whether it proved well-founded or not, should be a lesson to us as to the urgency of two important steps. An ample Report had been made on the

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  water supply, and had long laid on the Table of the House without action being taken upon it. Now, a healthy water supply would be the greatest possible benefit to the whole community. He had no doubt cholera was propagated through foul water; but whether this was the case or not, a thousand other diseases certainly were, and this largely accounted for the lamentable state of health of large numbers of the people in some parts of the Metropolis. Another question was the consolidation of sanitary powers. Sir Charles Adderley had introduced into the other House a consolidation Bill of 460 clauses. It certainly could not pass this year; but the earliest attention of the Government should be directed to these social and domestic questions, which had far greater effect on the morals, the health, the happiness, and the general tranquillity of the people than political measures. With a wise attention on the part of the Government to their social condition, the English people would be among the most easily governed peoples on the face of the earth.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock 'till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.