Lords Sitting of 11 August 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Report—Reductions ex Capite Lecti Abolition (292); Beerhouses (Ireland)* (306); County Boundaries (Ireland)* (307).
Third Reading—Prince Arthur's Annuity* (300); House of Commons (Witnesses)* (312); Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes* (102); Telegraph (Money)* (293); Limited Owners Residence Act (1870) Amendment* (280); Sunday Observance Prosecutions* (305); Summary Jurisdiction, &c. (Ireland)* (301); Intoxicating Liquors Licenses Suspension* (313), and passed.

UNITED STATES—THE JOINT HIGH COMMISSION—THE "ALABAMA" CLAIMS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD REDESDALEasked, Whether the question as to the right of the United States to persevere in their demand for indemnity on account of the "Alabama" claims since the reconciliation of the Southern with the Northern States will be distinctly raised before the arbitrators, inasmuch as the damage for which such indemnity is sought was done by the Southern States, who now joined in the application for damage done by themselves?
  1420
  He would remind their Lordships that, on his putting a Question earlier in the Session, it was stated that the point had not been raised previously, and that it was too late to bring it before the Commissioners. He hoped it would now be taken up, for the acts of the Southern States having been condoned by the Northern States, it was contrary to every principle of justice that the former should claim compensation for the damages inflicted by themselves.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I understand the Question of the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale) rather as a reminder of a point which he had suggested to me a month ago in regard to these claims, than as a Question to which he expected an answer. I think it would be obviously inconvenient that we should discuss in this House the nature of the case on behalf of England to be laid before the arbitrators, and I think it would be satisfactory to the noble Lord and to the House that I should state the steps which have been taken in this matter. My noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack has been intrusted by Her Majesty's Government with the task of drawing up our case, in conjunction with Lord Tenterden and Professor Bernard, the two men in all England most acquainted with the facts; and, in addition to that, I am happy to state that Sir Roundell Palmer has shown great public spirit in consenting to act as our counsel on this occasion before the arbitrators, notwithstanding the great personal inconvenience to which it will expose him. It being the time of the Long Vacation he will be able to do so, and superintend every detail of the case. With regard to the point raised by the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale), Government will not omit any point which it can fairly and honourably urge; at the same time they will not put in any claim which their advisers cannot approve of as being relevant to the matter in dispute.
  Afterwards—
  EARL GRANVILLEstated that he had just received a letter from the Lord Chief Justice of England (Sir Alexander Cockburn), to the effect that that most learned Judge had consented to act as arbitrator in the case of the claims arising out of the depredations committed by the Alabama and similar vessels.

REDUCTIONS EX CAPITE LECTI BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
REDUCTIONS EX CAPITE LECTI BILL.

  (No. 292.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 (No deed, &c. liable to reduction ex capite lecti).
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYmoved the insertion of words in the clause so as to prevent bequests under certain circumstances to religious and charitable institutions. By the present law of Scotland a deed executed within 60 days of death, was invalid, unless the person executing it went to church or market unaided between the execution of the deed and death. The effect of the Bill was to remove that invalidity, and the object of his Amendment was to protect dying persons from the undue influence of spiritual advisers by leaving invalid, as in England, any bequest made on a death-bed to religious or charitable institutions. He thought it could not, by any show of reason, be safely said that such influence had ceased to be dangerous.
  Amendment moved, in page 1, line 9, after ("lecti") to insert—
  ("Except in the case of a deed, instrument, or writing disposing of property for charitable purposes.")—(The Earl of Harrowby.)
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, he regretted the absence of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Colonsay) who had had 50 years' experience of the working of this law, and who, though admitting it might be amended, was opposed to its repeal. It provided that a deed made within 60 days of a man's death, if he was at the time afflicted with a disease from which, or from one consequent thereon, he died, should he invalid, unless he attended church or market in the interim. He might ride thither; but if he walked he must not lean on anybody, or the deed would be invalid. The law was certainly a singular one, and the 60 days' limit might be too long, or it might be advisable to dispense with it under certain circumstances; but there had been no complaint on the subject, and the repeal of the statute would leave no protection against influences which frequently prevailed in the case of the sick. He heard of a case only two days ago in
  1422
  which a person almost in extremis was told by the priest that his property formerly belonged to the Church, and that he ought to restore it, which the invalid, wishing, as he said, to die an honest man, agreed to do. He did not see why their Lordships should be called upon at that period of the Session to decide upon the question. He should support the Motion of his noble Friend (the Earl of Harrowby).
  THE LORD CHANCELLORregretted that he was compelled to oppose the Amendment, and commented on the absurd minutiæ of the law, describing it as a jumble of archaic observances, characteristic of a somewhat barbarous ago, in order to save judge and jury the trouble of deciding by evidence on a man's state of mind. He also objected to the Amendment as introducing into Scotland by a sidewind a law of mortmain, full of anomalies, to which that country had hitherto been a stranger; whereas if such a law was to be introduced it should be done after inquiry and on a sound basis. The Bill had passed through the other House without opposition, the late as well as the present Lord Advocate approving it, and the question had been under discussion for two years. The existing law, moreover, did not affect personalty.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he objected to destroying one protection against undue influences until a better had been devised.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEbelieved the county meetings in Scotland had not discussed the question, and that they were unaware of the introduction of this Bill, and therefore he should support the Motion of his noble Friend (the Earl of Harrowby).
  On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 12; Not-Contents 21: Majority 9.
  Resolved in the Negative.
  Clause agreed to.
  Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Monday next.

THE NEW CODE—EDUCATION GRANTS.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYasked the Lord President of the Council—1, Whether teachers of 35 years of age and of ten years' standing, being well reported

  1423
  of by the Inspector, will, for the next three years, be regarded as certificated teachers, so far as to make their schools eligible for a capitation grant; and 2, whether small endowments are now allowed to be counted as subscriptions in schools; to what extent; and under what circumstances? The noble Earl remarked, with reference to the second part of his Question, that formerly money coming from endowments was not counted in favour of a school as entitling it to receive the Government grant; but when the new Bill was passed there was added, after considerable discussion, a provision to this effect:—
  "The conditions required to be fulfilled by an elementary school in order to obtain an annual Parliamentary grant, shall be those contained in the Minutes of the Education Department in force for the time being, and shall, amongst other things, provide that after the 31st March, 1871, first, that such grants shall not be made in respect of instruction in religious subjects; and, secondly, such grants shall not for any year exceed the income of the school for that year derived from voluntary contributions, from school fees, and from any sources other than the Parliamentary grant."
  The point he wished to have decided was whether the words "from any sources other than the Parliamentary grant" would apply to such small endowments as he had mentioned, or whether those endowments ought not to be reckoned in favour of a school on behalf of the Government grant? If they were not so regarded, it would be impossible for many small schools to be maintained in the future. The result, indeed, would be in some cases to supersede them by a school board and a rate-supported school. He believed a promise was given when the Act was discussed that the endowments should be reckoned, and that otherwise the term "other sources" would have no meaning.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, with respect to the first part of the Question, under the 59th Article of the New Code certificates would be granted to the teachers in question for a period of three years, adding that certificates awarded during the years named would hold good after that period. As to the second Question, the old rule was that the amount accruing from endowments should be deducted from the Government grant, and the change made under the recent Act had improved the position of such schools, there being no longer that deduction,
  1424
  though the endowments were not, as the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) desired, reckoned with the voluntary contributions as giving a title to an increased Government grant. He did not think any hardship would be inflicted on these schools by the adoption of that principle; but that, in fact, they would be in a better position than before. In no case would endowments be deducted, and the amount received by these schools under the New Code would be in excess of what they would have earned under the former system.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYasked, If hereafter small sums were contributed for endowing parish schools, and the Endowed Schools Commission thought there was an excess of endowment over what was necessary for their maintenance, that excess might be taken away?
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, that would depend on the scheme of the Endowed Schools Commission. The Commissioners might lay down a certain principle; but in every case there must be a separate scheme which was to be laid before both Houses of Parliament. Where the excess of endowment was of any amount it might be applied to the foundation of an exhibition or scholarship in a school of a higher grade, for the benefit of the scholars of a particular parish school.
  LORD REDESDALEobserved, that there was no power to rate the inhabitants for the higher class schools; but if the Commissioners took the endowments which rendered rating unnecessary in a small parish, and applied them to other purposes than the maintenance of the elementary school, the effect would be to rate the parish for the higher education.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYthought the noble Lord took a very narrow view of the case if he objected to the placing of some increased burden on the ratepayers in order that the endowments might be applied to promoting higher education in the parishes.
  LORD REDESDALEwas of opinion that when a person had left an endowment for the purpose of establishing a school in a parish, and the money was still necessary for the maintenance of the school, it ought not to be applied to any other purpose.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock to Monday next, a quarter before Four o'clock.